Schism and End Times Scenario
#71
(09-15-2019, 01:49 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Debunked as apocryphal many a time.

'apocryphal' is a new word for me, had to look that one up. :)

If it's 'questionable' then it is not debunked, a lack of evidence does not equal guilty.

(09-15-2019, 01:49 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: This is not in any authentic collection of St Francis' works, and is thought to be a late addition by the Fratticelli.

Then take it with a grain of salt, because even without it, there is still the fact that this was at least written down in 1882, let that sink in for a bit and given what is happening in the Church today and that they even attributed it to St Francis of Assisi of all the saints is a ridiculously scary coincidence to say the least.

Secondly, we also have St Faustina who is not questionable, Christ tells her that St Pope John Paul II will prepare the world for His final coming, coincidence that after St Pope John Paul II we get Pope Benedict XVI who 'resigns' but still wears white for this Francis to be elected through what I believe to be a rigged election? Then we have Archbishop Fulton J Sheen's prophetic words which line up in a scary way to Francis.

Anyway, I think some people just aren't ready to hear (read) this (I wasn't ready when I first heard of this, and I resisted it for some time, because the successors to St Peter are the highest authorities on Earth and the gates of hell will never prevail). I believe however that as time goes on and things get worse/ramp up, it will become more and more clear. By all means, pray I'm wrong and pray for the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Personally I will be praying for Pope Benedict XVI.

God Bless You MM.
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#72
(09-14-2019, 11:03 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Maybe you're right and time will tell.


I think as time goes on it will become more and more clear, I have no doubt many of the faithful Catholics here will not be deceived by an apostate Church, but if it's Francis I can imagine many faithful Catholics faith will be shaken deeply. At least you know about this if the time comes.

(09-14-2019, 11:03 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Whatever happened to those charges of (potential?) Heresy being brought against him?

Can't charge a legitimate Pope of heresy as the Pope is the highest authority on Earth, not to mention if this were possible then it would say the gates of hell have prevailed IMO. Can a group of cardinals impeach a Pope? Only God has that power. If he was not validly elected... that changes everything entirely.

(09-14-2019, 11:03 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Don't make the same mistake as Protestants, conflating impeccability and infallibility.

I'm not, when St Pope John Paul II kissed an Islamic text, he erred greatly, when Francis took the hammer and sickle crucifix he erred, when he then said "Who am I to judge" and made walls anathema and so called man made climate change paramount and then celebrated Martin Luther's 500th anniversary etc etc, I came to the point that this was not just erring, it's an agenda.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You.
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#73
(09-15-2019, 09:34 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(09-14-2019, 11:03 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Can't charge a legitimate Pope of heresy as the Pope is the highest authority on Earth, not to mention if this were possible then it would say the gates of hell have prevailed IMO. Can a group of cardinals impeach a Pope? Only God has that power. If he was not validly elected... that changes everything entirely.

Now I'm not saying he's a heretic (and don't know what the protocol would be if he was), but the words and deeds of Pope Francis and others these days can be so alarming. However, it is the Will of God that he is Pope and God willing, he will hopefully yet live up to this admirably...but I highly doubt it.

Quote:I'm not, when St Pope John Paul II kissed an Islamic text, he erred greatly, when Francis took the hammer and sickle crucifix he erred, when he then said "Who am I to judge" and made walls anathema and so called man made climate change paramount and then celebrated Martin Luther's 500th anniversary etc etc, I came to the point that this was not just erring, it's an agenda.

In agreement as to an agenda rather than just erring (not that that isn't bad enough) and disgusted too, but none of it has been - or will be - taught as infallible dogma.

When all's said and done, whether it be in the temporal sphere with politicians, or more importantly in the spiritual sphere with clergy, we just have to endure and do the best we can in our own lives.
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#74
(09-12-2019, 04:20 PM)1Faith Wrote: Well if my scenario is correct we're not at the end of the world. That won't happen until after the triumph of the Immaculate Heart promised by our lady. We may be, however, living right before the time of Anti-Christ. We are almost certainly living through the Great Apostasy, I don't think many of us here will deny that point.

Do you think the Great Apostasy involves people apostatizing not formally and explicitly so, but by technically still being in the Church and just ignoring what's right?
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#75
Quote:Do you think the Great Apostasy involves people apostatizing not formally and explicitly so, but by technically still being in the Church and just ignoring what's right?
Yeah, pretty much. I think a great many, maybe a majority, of priests and bishops now simply do not have the faith. They've lost it, if they ever had it at all, and the worse part is many don't even know they've lost it. Malachi Martin had a lot of good things to say about this situation, look up his interviews with Bernard Janzen on YouTube, he explains the apostasy very well.

Much of the hierarchy of the Church is intent on turning the Church into nothing more than a humanistic international NGO with a "religious" aspect akin to that of Unitarian Universalism. They have embraced the Modernist heresy and this has eroded their faith to the point where it is no longer there. A majority of the hierarchy is in apostasy, Rome is in apostasy (see our Lady of LaSallette), and it will take a supernatural intervention of God to restore things.

The life of the Church follows the life of our Lord. The struggle of the 19th and early 20th century popes against modernism was akin to our Lord's agony in the garden. The spread of heresy, apostasy and liturgical devastation in the wake of Vatican 2 was akin to our Lord's scourging at the pillar. The implacable hatred of the radical modernists for Popes John Paul 2 and Benedict XVI was akin to our Lord's mocking and crowning with thorns and the carrying of the cross. The diabolical proliferation of heresy and sacrilege under Francis, this era in which we find ourselves now, is akin to our Lord hanging on the cross in agony, dying.

Assuming my scenario is right, we have three stages left to go. When the possible true Pope (Benedict XVI) is killed (see vision of the 3rd Secret), that is akin to our Lord dying on the cross. The Church will appear dead, and will go underground, while a false satanic counterfeit modernist church takes its place. The holy sacrifice of the mass will be prohibited and suppressed under the reign of Anti-Christ. This is akin to our Lord's burial. Finally there will be a divine intervention and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ will be cast into Hell, a new and holy Pope and great Catholic leader will emerge and restore the Church. This is akin to the resurrection. Finally there will come a last revolt, the end of the world, and the final judgement.

Read Windswept House by Malachi Martin and The Secret of Benedict XVI by Antonio Socci, and you'll be able to put all these pieces together. I could be wrong, but it sure does seem to be playing out this way.
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#76
(09-22-2019, 01:54 PM)1Faith Wrote:
Quote:Do you think the Great Apostasy involves people apostatizing not formally and explicitly so, but by technically still being in the Church and just ignoring what's right?
Yeah, pretty much. I think a great many, maybe a majority, of priests and bishops now simply do not have the faith. They've lost it, if they ever had it at all, and the worse part is many don't even know they've lost it. Malachi Martin had a lot of good things to say about this situation, look up his interviews with Bernard Janzen on YouTube, he explains the apostasy very well.

Much of the hierarchy of the Church is intent on turning the Church into nothing more than a humanistic international NGO with a "religious" aspect akin to that of Unitarian Universalism. They have embraced the Modernist heresy and this has eroded their faith to the point where it is no longer there. A majority of the hierarchy is in apostasy, Rome is in apostasy (see our Lady of LaSallette), and it will take a supernatural intervention of God to restore things.

The life of the Church follows the life of our Lord. The struggle of the 19th and early 20th century popes against modernism was akin to our Lord's agony in the garden. The spread of heresy, apostasy and liturgical devastation in the wake of Vatican 2 was akin to our Lord's scourging at the pillar. The implacable hatred of the radical modernists for Popes John Paul 2 and Benedict XVI was akin to our Lord's mocking and crowning with thorns and the carrying of the cross. The diabolical proliferation of heresy and sacrilege under Francis, this era in which we find ourselves now, is akin to our Lord hanging on the cross in agony, dying.

Assuming my scenario is right, we have three stages left to go. When the possible true Pope (Benedict XVI) is killed (see vision of the 3rd Secret), that is akin to our Lord dying on the cross. The Church will appear dead, and will go underground, while a false satanic counterfeit modernist church takes its place. The holy sacrifice of the mass will be prohibited and suppressed under the reign of Anti-Christ. This is akin to our Lord's burial. Finally there will be a divine intervention and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart, the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ will be cast into Hell, a new and holy Pope and great Catholic leader will emerge and restore the Church. This is akin to the resurrection. Finally there will come a last revolt, the end of the world, and the final judgement.

Read Windswept House by Malachi Martin and The Secret of Benedict XVI by Antonio Socci, and you'll be able to put all these pieces together. I could be wrong, but it sure does seem to be playing out this way.

I'm glad you've worked it all out in your head. Great plot for a movie, but totally out of step with reality, and basically just a crypto-Gnostic approach to Catholicism.

A fictional novel and a a book by a journalist which promotes a theory with serious theological flaws in it which he and other proponents refuse to address in an adult manner ... mocking those who point out said flaws (e.g. calling anyone who apposes them effiminates, as Ann Bardnhardt has done). "The Sky is Falling!"

I'll stick with what I know will give me peace of soul no matter what happens, and help me stay in the state of grace : Divine Tradition and Scripture, and let the good Lord do what he will. I have too much to do to save my own soul then worry about the political and intricate machinations which nothing I do will have even the slightest effect upon.

That approach has Divine Tradition, Scripture, 2,000 years of the Catholic Faith, countless Saints, and every spiritual author worth their salt behind it.

I'd very much recommend you, for the sake of your own peace of soul stop wildly speculating and promoting everything you've worked out in your own head, and instead focus on what will count in the end : the degree to which your know your Faith and love God by doing your duty of state well every day.

"Fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell."

That's the only thing to be worried about : staying in the State of Grace and doing good when and where we can.
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#77
(09-22-2019, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'm glad you've worked it all out in your head. Great plot for a movie, but totally out of step with reality, and basically just a crypto-Gnostic approach to Catholicism.

In all sincerity, I ask the following:

How is it 'totally out of step with reality'? It seemed very well put, especially with that (possibly accurate) analogy.

Coming from someone who won't know as much about Gnosticism as you, how is it 'a crypto-Gnostic approach to Catholicism'?

Quote:I'll stick with what I know will give me peace of soul no matter what happens, and help me stay in the state of grace : Divine Tradition and Scripture, and let the good Lord do what he will. I have too much to do to save my own soul then worry about the political and intricate machinations which nothing I do will have even the slightest effect upon.

That approach has Divine Tradition, Scripture, 2,000 years of the Catholic Faith, countless Saints, and every spiritual author worth their salt behind it.

I'd very much recommend you, for the sake of your own peace of soul stop wildly speculating and promoting everything you've worked out in your own head, and instead focus on what will count in the end : the degree to which your know your Faith and love God by doing your duty of state well every day.

"Fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell."

That's the only thing to be worried about : staying in the State of Grace and doing good when and where we can.

For the most part, there's nothing there I would disagree with, except the reference to 'wildly speculating and promoting everything you've worked out in your own head'.

While warning against all of that on the face of it is good advice, surely Our Lord and Our Lady made known everything to us that we do know as a message, for us to be mindful of, ponder in our hearts so as to better understand and to even be guided by.

Wouldn't discussing it among other Catholics be a good way of hopefully (at least at the beginning) proceeding through all that?
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#78
(09-22-2019, 07:56 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote:
(09-22-2019, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'm glad you've worked it all out in your head. Great plot for a movie, but totally out of step with reality, and basically just a crypto-Gnostic approach to Catholicism.

In all sincerity, I ask the following:

How is it 'totally out of step with reality'? It seemed very well put, especially with that (possibly accurate) analogy.

Coming from someone who won't know as much about Gnosticism as you, how is it 'a crypto-Gnostic approach to Catholicism'?

The first common thread among many of the various apocalyptic end-times scenarios with regard to the crisis in the Church as well as many of the conspiracy theories such as the Siri thesis, the imposter Paul VI, the murder of Pope John Paul I, and even now Benevacantism, have this common thread : that secret knowledge of these matter is an important part of being a good Catholic, and that the initiated alone will understand and know such things.

The other common thread is that we, who in no way can affect such things, and for whom it matters not a lick as to the proper practice of our Faith, all get to come up with our own ideas about this. Like most things Gnostic, it is a fascination with things which neither provide legitimate recreation nor help our Faith in any way. The fruit of the tree is wild speculation without reference to any theological or philosophical principles.

I say it is "totally out of step with reality" because when one need to read historical fiction as part of a theory (Malachi Martin's), and add to it a book by a journalist (Socci) who proposes a theory which has many serious theological (ecclesiological) problems which are never addressed, we've left the realm of reality and entered the world of fantasy.


(09-22-2019, 07:56 PM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: While that too on the face of it is good advice, surely Our Lord and Our Lady made known everything to us that we do know as a message, for us to be mindful of, ponder in our hearts so as to better understand and to even be guided by.

Wouldn't discussing it among other Catholics (at least to begin with) be a good way of doing that?

Fine, but with the requisite theological and philosophical safeguards.

That's the problem.

Rarely is that what is done, however, and for the vast majority of people, it is dangerous to just discuss such pet theories, because these invariably become "the Faith". They jump down the rabbit hole. I've been a traddie now for near 20 years, and can tell you from experience in various countries and places I've spent time, the pattern is always the same. When people lose focus on the essentials and on a good spiritual life, they quickly find a substitute in the esoteric. They get weird, and they often lose their Faith, become Sedevacantists, start promoting false apparitions, etc. These people would rather read Windswept House than Devout Life. They would rather spend hours researching the latest political intrigue than some mental prayer.

These are the people that instead of a decent night's sleep after their evening prayers, prefer to stay up, listen to and call into Coast to Coast AM talking about aliens and angelic possession and all manner of dingbat stuff.

That's crypto-Gnosticism, which is a diabolical parody of Catholicism, and when the essentials are left aside, the door is open for the devil to walk right in and disturb the soul this way.
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#79
(09-22-2019, 08:34 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: The first common thread among many of the various apocalyptic end-times scenarios with regard to the crisis in the Church as well as many of the conspiracy theories such as the Siri thesis, the imposter Paul VI, the murder of Pope John Paul I, and even now Benevacantism, have this common thread : that secret knowledge of these matter is an important part of being a good Catholic, and that the initiated alone will understand and know such things.

Rest assured that I have never gone along with those specific theories, nor do I think that only a select few are meant to understand and know. Admittedly though, I would recommend us all continuing to pray for the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart.

Quote:I say it is "totally out of step with reality" because when one need to read historical fiction as part of a theory (Malachi Martin's), and add to it a book by a journalist (Socci) who proposes a theory which has many serious theological (ecclesiological) problems which are never addressed, we've left the realm of reality and entered the world of fantasy.

Malachi Martin might have chosen to write in that form to better proceed more subtly and avoid censure.

What examples are there of Socci's errors?

Quote:Rarely is that what is done, however, and for the vast majority of people, it is dangerous to just discuss such pet theories, because these invariably become "the Faith". They jump down the rabbit hole. I've been a traddie now for near 20 years, and can tell you from experience in various countries and places I've spent time, the pattern is always the same. When people lose focus on the essentials and on a good spiritual life, they quickly find a substitute in the esoteric. They get weird, and they often lose their Faith, become Sedevacantists, start promoting false apparitions, etc. These people would rather read Windswept House than Devout Life. They would rather spend hours researching the latest political intrigue than some mental prayer.

These are the people that instead of a decent night's sleep after their evening prayers, prefer to stay up, listen to and call into Coast to Coast AM talking about aliens and angelic possession and all manner of dingbat stuff.

That's crypto-Gnosticism, which is a diabolical parody of Catholicism, and when the essentials are left aside, the door is open for the devil to walk right in and disturb the soul this way.

Yes, that all makes sense. Take care not to assume that those who do speculate about such things have left the essentials aside though.
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#80
(09-23-2019, 10:11 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: Malachi Martin might have chosen to write in that form to better proceed more subtly and avoid censure.

He could have, yes, but then that'd be speculating on his meanings, which is exactly the attitude which I suggest is not good.

Firstly, when someone write a modern-style exposé or historical text he will quote sources which can be verified, so the claims and attibutions he makes can be double checked. Thus when the author may draw conclusions, these seem at least likely or reasonable. When such things are veiled in metaphor, without sources, clarity is lost and it becomes impossible to separate the fiction from the fact without comparison with an historical record.

Thus if you read a Louis de Wohl historical novel, you get a very good impression of historical realities in general, but certainly dialog and many aspects are creative and artistic interpretations. To understand what is historical fact and what is fictional one needs to read some non-fiction historical sources.

Some of Malachi Martin's books claim to be actual histories. Others are novels and claim to be fictional. Those later ought to be treated as recreational reading, not as metaphors for grand conspiracies.

And Martin had no problem speaking quite directly in other fora. His regular appearances with Art Bell on Coast to Coast AM claiming all kind of crackpot ideas clearly shows he was not afraid of censure. There were effectively non censures that could be applied to a man who had left his religious order and been effectively reduced to the lay state (he retained only the obligation to celibacy), so I find that a difficult explanation.

I am also troubled by the very questionable claims that Martin makes of his access to things, which he would not normally have had in his positions. I also find it odd that his reaction to all of what he claims would be exclaustration and effective lacization instead of in a crisis of the priesthood remaining a practicing priest and help save souls using the powers of his priesthood. In the face of a grand crisis, if Windswept House is meant to be a metaphorical presentation of reality, effectively to leave off one's priesthood and turn over to a career as a writer of novels is a very odd path that does not match up with the threat. My gut feeling, and I could very well be wrong, is that he was disillusioned, left the Jesuits and took up a career writing and because of a few things he knew and that Irish talent for telling a good story, was able to string together very convincing fictional accounts which sold lots of books especially as people were looking for answers, and this allowed him to have a decent income. To me, this makes sense as to why his more "out there" works are clearly proffered as novels, and not histories.

So, I don't think Martin was a fraud, I just think people give him far too much attention and credit, as if he is a reliable insider source who knew everything that was happening.

(09-23-2019, 10:11 AM)Stephanus ignotum Wrote: What examples are there of Socci's errors?

Socci is pushing the Benevacantist thesis. This thesis, as is described elsewhere (and where discussion of it is confined), has some major theological problems which have not been well-addressed.

I do not say that he is teaching error, but that these theological problems need to be solved before publishing a book promoting a thesis that contains them.

My concern is that when someone says "Here's my theory" and suggest it all makes sense once you read a novel and a book which is mostly speculation and has some theological holes in it, that's not a very good theory, and probably is not going to help us to save our souls. That's all.
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