On which day did God create the angels?
#1
Genesis "speaks" of the seven days of creation. Angels aren't mentioned, but I'm thinking it must have been the first or second day. What does the Church teach us?
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#2
My understanding had been that it was on the first day. Gen 1,3: "Fiat lux" -- "Be made light". The devil, previously the highest of the angels, is the lucifer -- the light-bearer.
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#3
This question leads to another that MM might be able to answer -

Since time is the measure of change, but change requires the actualization of potential, how do angels experience time? Do they somehow have unactualized potential even though they are immaterial?

I do understand that perhaps the unactualized potential is their wills and intellects being undetermined regarding specific things (particulars), though they are determined regarding their last end (thus the irrevocability of the demons' fall); however, I find it hard to swallow that such a situation could be. Their fall is irrevocable precisely because they are immaterial and therefore their wills are unchangeable; so how could their wills still change regarding particulars (for example, 'I'm going to tempt person X in such and such a way'), but not regarding their final end?

This relates to the OP because if angels are outside of time they may not have been created "on" a day at all.
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#4
@Filiolus Disclaimer: I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation of how I understood FR Ripperger to have explained it. In the end (as in after we die) each one of us--even the demons--are slaves of Christ. The only difference is whether we are so willingly or unwillingly. 

The demons hate us and want nothing more to do with us but they're stuck with us. It's true they get a certain pleasure out of getting us to sin, but each time they do, it also increases their shame. They have no choice. They can do nothing to us unless God permits and He only allows them into our lives to bring about a greater glory.

My thoughts: the demons sort of remind me of a person who cuts themself. They know in the end it's going to cause them pain, but they cannot resist.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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#5
Quote:This relates to the OP because if angels are outside of time they may not have been created "on" a day at all.



Quote:God createth Heaven and Earth, and all things therein, in six days.

[1] In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. [3] And God said: Be light made. And light was made. [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [5] And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.


Bible says all things, so I think that would include the angels.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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#6
(09-14-2019, 01:00 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: @Filiolus Disclaimer: I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation of how I understood FR Ripperger to have explained it. In the end (as in after we die) each one of us--even the demons--are slaves of Christ. The only difference is whether we are so willingly or unwillingly. 

The demons hate us and want nothing more to do with us but they're stuck with us. It's true they get a certain pleasure out of getting us to sin, but each time they do, it also increases their shame. They have no choice. They can do nothing to us unless God permits and He only allows them into our lives to bring about a greater glory.

My thoughts: the demons sort of remind me of a person who cuts themself. They know in the end it's going to cause them pain, but they cannot resist.

Yeah, but my question is how it's metaphysically possible given Thomistic philosophy. Honestly I think only someone with training in philosophy can answer it, which is why I specifically called out MM.

Regarding the Bible quotation, it would certainly seem to imply that angels were created on a day, and I'm sure that's the case; theologians seem unanimous in saying that angels do experience time. But again, that doesn't answer my question about metaphysics.
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#7
If one follows the Augustinian notion supported by some Fathers of an instantaneous Creation, then the "days" are just a method of describing the order itself in metaphor, and not the literal sequence of events in this Creation. Some would, for instance, assert that these six days are six visions in which Moses saw Creation and thus recorded it this way.

The point is that it is not clear that the Angels were created on any day, just as anything which is not explicitly described is only fittingly fit into the scheme given in Genesis 1.

Other Fathers who suggest a far longer time for process of Creation (strictly, then Creation is only the first moment, not the whole process) than merely 168-hours, clearly then would not assign a particular "day" or "epoch" to the Creation of the Angels.

It would see fitting, however, that the spiritual world was created before the corporeal, seeing as the spiritual world is given some degree of charge over the operation of the material.

So, if one puts it on any "day" then it would be the first, but if one asserts an instantaneous Creation, then the notion of which "day" is somewhat meaningless.
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#8
(09-14-2019, 01:07 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote:
Quote:This relates to the OP because if angels are outside of time they may not have been created "on" a day at all.



Quote:God createth Heaven and Earth, and all things therein, in six days.

[1] In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. [3] And God said: Be light made. And light was made. [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [5] And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.


Bible says all things, so I think that would include the angels.

You're quoting a heading in a Bible and highlighting this summary. While it is correct, it's certainly not a good argument to quote editorial summaries as if you're quoting Scripture itself.

In short, no, the Bible does not say "and all things therein". Some editor or commentator did.
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#9
(09-14-2019, 10:33 AM)Filiolus Wrote: This question leads to another that MM might be able to answer -

Since time is the measure of change, but change requires the actualization of potential, how do angels experience time? Do they somehow have unactualized potential even though they are immaterial?

I do understand that perhaps the unactualized potential is their wills and intellects being undetermined regarding specific things (particulars), though they are determined regarding their last end (thus the irrevocability of the demons' fall); however, I find it hard to swallow that such a situation could be. Their fall is irrevocable precisely because they are immaterial and therefore their wills are unchangeable; so how could their wills still change regarding particulars (for example, 'I'm going to tempt person X in such and such a way'), but not regarding their final end?

This relates to the OP because if angels are outside of time they may not have been created "on" a day at all.

For angels, St Thomas posits an "eviternity" which is a kind of spiritual time, sharing at once certain aspects of time, but other aspects of eternity.

Only God is pure act without any potential, so even in an angel there is some kind of potency not yet actual, else to say "angel" would be to say "God". But these are not the same.
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#10
(09-15-2019, 05:34 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(09-14-2019, 01:07 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote:
Quote:This relates to the OP because if angels are outside of time they may not have been created "on" a day at all.



Quote:God createth Heaven and Earth, and all things therein, in six days.

[1] In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. [3] And God said: Be light made. And light was made. [4] And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness. [5] And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.


Bible says all things, so I think that would include the angels.

You're quoting a heading in a Bible and highlighting this summary. While it is correct, it's certainly not a good argument to quote editorial summaries as if you're quoting Scripture itself.

In short, no, the Bible does not say "and all things therein". Some editor or commentator did.

I know perfectly well it's a commentary. It's in the Catholic bible, it can't be wrong.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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