Legal Cannabis and Morality
#41
Quote:Something else I'm wondering about reading this thread: there's been talk about "the culture" of marijuana: I think there are a gorillion sub-cultures in play here, and while someone raised on the North side, the ritzy side of a town, might have an idea of "that culture over there" where people might sometimes "use drugs" after work is a "culture" associated with losers, hippies, ex-hippies, children of unmarried ex-hippies, folks who don't have books in their homes, people who fight over the colors red and blue, etc. -- while someone raised on that other side of town might know lots of respectable people who go to church, raise their kids decently, go to the library, and may occasionally have a few tokes of grass they grew themselves after planting a few seeds between the rows of corn in their garden, thereby having nothing to do with "the drug culture" per se, or drug dealers, or Mexican cartels, and all the Hollywood stuff. 

I've never done drugs. About 70% of my extended family is on drugs. Not exclusively marijuana, and nothing people would think is "hard," some of them abuse pharmaceuticals. I didn't grow up in a ritzy, "North side" family. The culture "over there" was a pretty real experience for me. Growing up, pretty much all of the guys I hung out with were stoners. I've seen people who've used drugs (by drugs, I mean weed and pharmaceuticals) go on and lead pretty respectable lives. I've seen people who use drugs who can hold a steady job and get a house. In most regards, they are better persons than I am, and I am perfectly happy to concede that.

I've also seen people who get strung out, who abuse or neglect their children because of their habitual drug use and who become general burdens for their families. The last category is the majority. Most of the people I have known who "have a few tokes of grass" are not better people for it. I know it's anecdotal and I know it won't change minds, but I find it compelling.

Quote:Just something to keep in mind, which leads to a bigger point about the world of traditional Catholicism: I think that, too often, what is seen as the True, Good, and Beautiful can be too exclusively bound up in cultural specifics and personal aesthetics. The "1950ism,"  "neo-Victorianism," and "pseudo-Amish thing" we sometimes see in trad circles -- things that strike me as larping rooted in anomie -- can be really off-putting to a lot of people.

I don't want to sound like one of those larping trads "rooted in anomie." I get why people do that; been there, done that and it's ridiculous, but I understand it. And as far as I am concerned the Victorian era was only good for writing torturous romance novels. I know the 1950's only for doo wop music and Grease. And the Amish make really, really good fired ham and potatoes (perhaps imitating them would be a net good, no?) So, yes, I get that it is off-putting. I don't want people to act that way.

All that just to say that I don't really care about using cannabis for medicine. I think there are conceivable ways that it could be used licitly and everything would be perfectly fine, so let there be research into its benefits. Okay.

But it isn't medicinal reasons that people really care about. You're not getting massive campaigns for marijuana usage, CNN and Nat Geo documentaries, and dozens of politicians running on it's legalization because people care about the "medicinal" use, whatever they mean when they say that. Like I said above, it's just hallow out. Probably 4 out 5 people really just want to be able to get baked and it be "perfectly fine, I mean, after all it's legal now, bro."
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#42
(09-18-2019, 10:14 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote: I've also seen people who get strung out, who abuse or neglect their children because of their habitual drug use and who become general burdens for their families. The last category is the majority. Most of the people I have known who "have a few tokes of grass" are not better people for it. I know it's anecdotal and I know it won't change minds, but I find it compelling.
 
My anecdotes are that the people I know whom I know who just use grass aren't any worse off for it as far as I can see. I've known some meth heads and crackheads who'd also smoke grass, and the latter stuff is Hellish.

(09-18-2019, 10:14 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote: I don't want to sound like one of those larping trads "rooted in anomie." I get why people do that; been there, done that and it's ridiculous, but I understand it. And as far as I am concerned the Victorian era was only good for writing torturous romance novels. I know the 1950's only for doo wop music and Grease. And the Amish make really, really good fired ham and potatoes (perhaps imitating them would be a net good, no?) So, yes, I get that it is off-putting. I don't want people to act that way.
 
I get it, too. But it's annoying and an Anti-Selling Point for Tradition. Well, except for regarding potential pagan larpers LOL

(09-18-2019, 10:14 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote: All that just to say that I don't really care about using cannabis for medicine. I think there are conceivable ways that it could be used licitly and everything would be perfectly fine, so let there be research into its benefits. Okay.

But it isn't medicinal reasons that people really care about. You're not getting massive campaigns for marijuana usage, CNN and Nat Geo documentaries, and dozens of politicians running on it's legalization because people care about the "medicinal" use, whatever they mean when they say that. Like I said above, it's just hallow out. Probably 4 out 5 people really just want to be able to get baked and it be "perfectly fine, I mean, after all it's legal now, bro."
 
But you can't say that it isn't medical reasons people really care about and then say "4 out of 5 people" really just want to get baked. I absolutely agree that the majority of the big campaign for legalization is likely from those people who want to use grass recreationally, but some people care a heckuva lot about pain relief, relief from chemo symptoms, etc. (which no one here has a problem with -- but which also seems to be forgotten).

There are also a ton of people like me who see the war on drugs as a political failure, one that's brought about more evils than it's solved. Lots and lots of people believe this. Re. cannabis legalization, I guess the States that are legalizing it will be the testing ground...
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#43
(09-18-2019, 10:14 AM)Alphonse il Segundo Wrote:
Quote:Something else I'm wondering about reading this thread: there's been talk about "the culture" of marijuana: I think there are a gorillion sub-cultures in play here, and while someone raised on the North side, the ritzy side of a town, might have an idea of "that culture over there" where people might sometimes "use drugs" after work is a "culture" associated with losers, hippies, ex-hippies, children of unmarried ex-hippies, folks who don't have books in their homes, people who fight over the colors red and blue, etc. -- while someone raised on that other side of town might know lots of respectable people who go to church, raise their kids decently, go to the library, and may occasionally have a few tokes of grass they grew themselves after planting a few seeds between the rows of corn in their garden, thereby having nothing to do with "the drug culture" per se, or drug dealers, or Mexican cartels, and all the Hollywood stuff. 

I've never done drugs. About 70% of my extended family is on drugs. Not exclusively marijuana, and nothing people would think is "hard," some of them abuse pharmaceuticals. I didn't grow up in a ritzy, "North side" family. The culture "over there" was a pretty real experience for me. Growing up, pretty much all of the guys I hung out with were stoners. I've seen people who've used drugs (by drugs, I mean weed and pharmaceuticals) go on and lead pretty respectable lives. I've seen people who use drugs who can hold a steady job and get a house. In most regards, they are better persons than I am, and I am perfectly happy to concede that.

I've also seen people who get strung out, who abuse or neglect their children because of their habitual drug use and who become general burdens for their families. The last category is the majority. Most of the people I have known who "have a few tokes of grass" are not better people for it. I know it's anecdotal and I know it won't change minds, but I find it compelling.

Quote:Just something to keep in mind, which leads to a bigger point about the world of traditional Catholicism: I think that, too often, what is seen as the True, Good, and Beautiful can be too exclusively bound up in cultural specifics and personal aesthetics. The "1950ism,"  "neo-Victorianism," and "pseudo-Amish thing" we sometimes see in trad circles -- things that strike me as larping rooted in anomie -- can be really off-putting to a lot of people.

I don't want to sound like one of those larping trads "rooted in anomie." I get why people do that; been there, done that and it's ridiculous, but I understand it. And as far as I am concerned the Victorian era was only good for writing torturous romance novels. I know the 1950's only for doo wop music and Grease. And the Amish make really, really good fired ham and potatoes (perhaps imitating them would be a net good, no?) So, yes, I get that it is off-putting. I don't want people to act that way.

All that just to say that I don't really care about using cannabis for medicine. I think there are conceivable ways that it could be used licitly and everything would be perfectly fine, so let there be research into its benefits. Okay.

But it isn't medicinal reasons that people really care about. You're not getting massive campaigns for marijuana usage, CNN and Nat Geo documentaries, and dozens of politicians running on it's legalization because people care about the "medicinal" use, whatever they mean when they say that. Like I said above, it's just hallow out. Probably 4 out 5 people really just want to be able to get baked and it be "perfectly fine, I mean, after all it's legal now, bro."

Well as everyone knows there are "hard" drinks and there are soft drinks but the different between herb and heroin is astronomical in comparison. And methamphetamine, well let's put it this way, there would of never been a Hustler magazine without it and as every one used to know, speed kills, (I hear Virgra is pretty close). But taking heroin, they say, is like like dying, and part of the euphoria is realizing you didn't. Lots of panhandlers who stand at off ramps all day are on heroin. This all fits nicely into the Culture of Death for the folks who are intent on killing us with birth control and abortion and now with the new thing, euthanasia. Legal doesn't by any means make it moral. And, by the way, I never tried "anything" until I was well out of my formative year.
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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#44
(09-18-2019, 04:54 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: There are also a ton of people like me who see the war on drugs as a political failure, one that's brought about more evils than it's solved. Lots and lots of people believe this. Re. cannabis legalization, I guess the States that are legalizing it will be the testing ground...

So far, so good here in Maryland.  We only have medical marijuana that's legal here, but it's really only medical on paper.  The dispensaries don't hide their recreational nature (half of them are blaring reggae through the sound system when you walk into the lobby), most sell all the typical paraphernalia as well.  It's beyond easy to get around the qualifying conditions for a license, and the default prescription is about 4.25 ounces a month.  The clientele are mostly stereotypical potheads.  It really is medical in name only.  Not sure if that's how it is in other medical-only states, but there's nothing to differentiate the medical dispensaries here (and I mean, absolutely nothing) from the recreational dispensaries I've been to in Colorado.

All that being said, the state isn't going up in a cloud of dank, dank smoke. Neither was Colorado. It's not the end of the world.
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#45
I haven't read all of this thread yet, but I'll just add straight up that I'm strongly against and do not trust it at all. 1st it's medicinal purposes, then it's recreational use, so it even starts out with a lie. If there really is something in the medicinal aspect, I would put heavy restrictions on it and only the oil extract in pill form, but of course, many mouths want to feed off this 'medicinal' excuse which is why I'm so skeptical.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless
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#46
(09-20-2019, 09:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: All that being said, the state isn't going up in a cloud of dank, dank smoke. Neither was Colorado. It's not the end of the world.

They said the same about the passage of gay marriage (sodomy), but we just have to be patient.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

God Bless You
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#47
(09-20-2019, 09:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: All that being said, the state isn't going up in a cloud of dank, dank smoke.  Neither was Colorado.  It's not the end of the world.


The moral argument about marijuana usage isn't based on how many people will be using it or the potential radical consequences that would result from legalizing it although that line of reasoning would be relevant in a discussion about legalization I suppose, but it could come across as fear mongering.

And the same applies to gay marriage as another user brought up.

Both acts must be evaluated in themselves firstly--are they intrinsically moral or immoral? Then we can look at social consequences in addition.
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#48
I just came across the following book: https://emilypost.com/book/higher-etiquette/

Higher Etiquette. Very clever... I really don't know what to make of this. It's grotesque yet to be expected.
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#49
(09-26-2019, 10:14 AM)piscis Wrote: I just came across the following book: https://emilypost.com/book/higher-etiquette/

Higher Etiquette. Very clever... I really don't know what to make of this. It's grotesque yet to be expected.

Haha, that's actually pretty funny. Although I would imagine that such a guide will become outdated very fast.
"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin and freed itself from them. Keep hell’s torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears: ‘Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies.’ Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."

- St. Isaias the Solitary

"Constant action overcomes cold; being still overcomes heat. Purity
and stillness give the correct law to all under heaven."

- Tao Te Ching 45
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#50
Is this a serious sin? A man don't rob or kills. The person is just trying to have pleasure. Is it a sin to experience joy and peace? I just don't understand what this sin is based on. Okay, let's say it's a sin. Is it considered a sin if a person is forced to use marijuana? When my brother was undergoing treatment, the doctor prescribed medical marijuana for him. And my brother really liked it. Thus, it is periodically once a month buy weed online canada. He started taking pot against his will. Is this a sin?
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