Bishop Gracida condemns Bergoglio for Vatican Garden Rituals
#31
(10-10-2019, 07:58 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 07:47 PM)Florus Wrote: Agreed. Francis really isn't all that unique,

I know right, every Pope invites pagans to worship idols before him in the Vatican gardens, it's like a right of passage... Is there anything he could do that would be unprecedented in your eyes?

When did St Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI etc sit among pagans while they worshiped idols in the Vatican gardens?

I would note that in the Canonization of the Mexican Martyrs mentioned above, they died in order to try to prevent pagan worship in a Catholic place, and John Paul II permitted a pagan priestess to "exorcise" him.

As scandalous as it is what Francis has done, and I make no apology for it, he witnessed it, and it does not seem he actively participated.

John Paul II actively participated and invited this kind of stuff. He and Benedict several times went in to Synagogues and Mosques for ceremonies therein. Things that traditional moral theology would consider grave sins against the First Commandment and Fifth Commandment (Scandal), and which would make a man suspect of heresy and apostasy.

And I do not reject him as a Pope, but if you are going to reject a man as Pope over such things, then it's a bit of connotative dissonance to only go back to 2013.
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#32
(10-10-2019, 08:01 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 07:47 PM)Florus Wrote: if you decide he isn't pope I don't see any reason to stop there.

Exactly, and that's the crux of the argument, and why I take offense at St Pope John Paul II being likened to Francis because I take offense at everything Francis is doing.

Because you have your conclusion already, and the evidence has to be made to fit your conclusion.
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#33
(10-10-2019, 08:26 PM)Augustinian Wrote: [Image: Tilak.jpg]
JPII being anointed with the Pagan sign of the "Tilak"

Well......... I was not expecting such a picture........ 

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
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#34
(10-10-2019, 11:57 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Because you have your conclusion already, and the evidence has to be made to fit your conclusion.

Yup, so what now? I can't accept this Francis heretic, what would it take for 'the gates of hell to prevail'? and does it even matter who the Pope is or what they say and do anymore? The only thing I can say with St Pope John Paul II is that he greatly erred, in his fight against communism he neglected a lot. When it comes to Francis there is nothing like the fight against communism to even appreciate, instead it's the opposite, same errors but with the added bonus of taking the side of our enemies who seek to persecute us.

While ever Pope Benedict XVI is alive, I cannot accept Francis, when Pope Benedict XVI dies I'll re-asses my options at that time.

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
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#35
(10-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote: If anyone wants to see some real confusion, browse the thread on this on CAF and see all of the libs scramble to try and defend what it clearly a heretical act: https://forums.catholic.com/t/amazon-syn.../569821/40

I got as far as post 16 and had to stop and leave before I actually was sick!  :D
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#36
(10-11-2019, 03:09 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: The only thing I can say with St Pope John Paul II is that he greatly erred, in his fight against communism he neglected a lot.

So he just gets a pass for actively participating in pagan rituals (which, so far, Francis hasn't done, as MM pointed out), kissing the Koran (which as you may know, commands its followers to kill us), asking St John the Baptist to watch over the 'Religion of Peace', organising the pagan celebrations at Assisi, worshipping with Jews and Muslims, going to the Great Synagogue of Rome, being seated on an equal level with the Chief Rabbi (and never mentioning the Holy Name for fear of offending the 'Elder Brethren'), having bare breasted women dancing at Papal Masses, etc., etc?

This is not just 'neglecting a lot', this is active support for and participation in false religions, as well as sacrilege causing great scandal to the Faithful. It is behaviour that before the Council would have been considered bordering on apostasy.

And no, I will not do your research for you. If you want pictures, cites, etc., look them up. I, and many others in the Tank, remember them all too well.

As I said, he's got a solid lock on the second worst Pope in history. When the whole 'John Paul the Great' bollocks started I called him 'John Paul the Small', but I've found a new title, 'John Paul the Great Disappointment'.
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#37
(10-11-2019, 04:12 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 03:09 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: The only thing I can say with St Pope John Paul II is that he greatly erred, in his fight against communism he neglected a lot.

So he just gets a pass for actively participating in pagan rituals (which, so far, Francis hasn't done, as MM pointed out), kissing the Koran (which as you may know, commands its followers to kill us), asking St John the Baptist to watch over the 'Religion of Peace', organising the pagan celebrations at Assisi, worshipping with Jews and Muslims, going to the Great Synagogue of Rome, being seated on an equal level with the Chief Rabbi (and never mentioning the Holy Name for fear of offending the 'Elder Brethren'), etc., etc?

This is not just 'neglecting a lot', this is active support for and participation in false religions. It is behaviour that before the Council would have been considered bordering on apostasy.

And no, I will not do your research for you. If you want pictures, cites, etc., look them up. I, and many others in the Tank, remember them all too well.

As I said, he's got a solid lock on the second worst Pope in history. When the whole 'John Paul the Great' bollocks started I called him 'John Paul the Small', but I've found a new title, 'John Paull the Great Disappointment'.

Let's add to this his utter failure to prevent Communism from further subverting the Church Herself, which has blossomed fully in the current pontificate.
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#38
(10-11-2019, 04:30 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Let's add to this his utter failure to prevent Communism from further subverting the Church Herself, which has blossomed fully in the current pontificate.

Yeah, I forgot that. Like the fact that information has come out that there is evidence that the pervert McCarrick he made a Bishop may have been a trained communist mole.
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#39
(10-11-2019, 03:09 AM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 11:57 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Because you have your conclusion already, and the evidence has to be made to fit your conclusion.

Yup, so what now? I can't accept this Francis heretic, what would it take for 'the gates of hell to prevail'? and does it even matter who the Pope is or what they say and do anymore? The only thing I can say with St Pope John Paul II is that he greatly erred, in his fight against communism he neglected a lot. When it comes to Francis there is nothing like the fight against communism to even appreciate, instead it's the opposite, same errors but with the added bonus of taking the side of our enemies who seek to persecute us.

While ever Pope Benedict XVI is alive, I cannot accept Francis, when Pope Benedict XVI dies I'll re-asses my options at that time.

You asked for evidence, and yet now will not listen to evidence. That is a fine response if you agree that your position is merely an irrational belief that you refuse to abandon and need no evidence and can hold said belief even in the face of contrary evidence. If so, then there's no point in arguing about it, because there is no argument

Is that what you are saying?

I write that only because if you are going to claim it is logical, then it is illogical to stop with Francis and you should take up full-blown Sedevacantism, which, I would argue is theologically problematic, but at least makes is more logical than that previous position, since Benedict also promoted these same ideas and was fine with attending and witnessing pagan or non-Christian ceremonies.

Benedict XVI attended Jewish services in synagogues and engaged in plenty of Ecumenical activities. He, like JPII invited all the world's religions together for prayer in Assisi in commemoration of the 25th anniversary of the 1986 event of JPII in November 2011. The pagans who were attending in the presence of the Pope and inside the Basilica of Our Lady of the Angels invoked false gods. John Vennari, in one of his last articles explained this here. It was not a surprise that the pagans would do this because it was all arranged, planned and pre-printed in the booklets for the ceremony.

All I need to know is that you recognize that the position is illogical. If you want to hold it afterward and without evidence, then it is silly, but then at least we know that there's no point in arguing about it, and also no reason for you to promote it.
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#40
(10-11-2019, 04:12 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: So he just gets a pass for...

No, because at least he actually fought for Christ on occasions, now if he was a closet communist himself along with all of that then yea, the gates of hell would have prevailed IMO, and that I guess is the difference when it comes to Francis IMO.

(10-11-2019, 04:12 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: And no, I will not do your research for you. If you want pictures, cites, etc., look them up.

lol when has it ever worked like that? The one making the claim provides the evidence.

(10-11-2019, 04:12 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: As I said, he's got a solid lock on the second worst Pope in history. When the whole 'John Paul the Great' bollocks started I called him 'John Paul the Small', but I've found a new title, 'John Paul the Great Disappointment'.

:( Well yea, disappointing, but he did give us some things to be proud of, even if there were some great disappointments along the way, perhaps his sufferings near the end was to make reparation for those offenses.

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