Fr. Thomas Weinandy on "Pope Francis and Schism"
#11
(10-12-2019, 09:56 AM)LionHippo Wrote: Quite honestly, I'm fatigued from constantly praying for the Church to avoid errors.  Everyone always says that “Christ will prevail in the end” anyway, so I’m fine with that.  Let Him prevail.  But all of us have busy lives and problems of our own to begin with.  We didn’t ask to be placed on this earth and many of us were just born into this faith to begin with.  I have my own life and family to deal with, aside from constant worry and praying about the Church to “remain holy.”

The idea of a God who puts us in a position of constantly praying and working to keep holy a faith that He supposedly founded just doesn’t attract me.  I’m exhausted doing this.  I’m just going to wait out this Amazon Synod to see what happens.  But I’m done praying and worrying.  If the Church is on such a close precipice to the edge of doom that she’ll fail if LionHippo doesn’t say his prayer to St. Michael today, then I don’t know what to say.  

Except for the fact that without the Church, we're all going to hell. All of us. We're not supposed to be worried. But we are supposed to keep the Faith.


Quote:The Church is supposed to give me comfort and guidance, not the other way around.

Guidance, yes and she still does. Comfort? Well, yes if it's in the hope of Heaven. I don't think the Holy Family had much comfort. Are we better than them that our families should have it easier?
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#12
(10-12-2019, 10:26 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Except for the fact that without the Church, we're all going to hell. All of us. We're not supposed to be worried. But we are supposed to keep the Faith.

Guidance, yes and she still does. Comfort? Well, yes if it's in the hope of Heaven. I don't think the Holy Family had much comfort. Are we better than them that our families should have it easier?
 
The point I am at right now is questioning the integrity of the visible Church, to be honest.  I did not come to this point lightly or without great reflection.  So to me, even the concept of salvation, heaven and hell rests upon the proceedings of the institutional, visible Church.  I'm just keeping it simple: for me, it depends on what changes after this Amazon Synod.  I had to put a line somewhere, and this is what I chose.  A case can already be made that over the last 50 years, the visible, institutional Church is so fractured from the previous centuries of her history that effectively, there is no continuity of tradition or teaching.  I do not subscribe to any theory rejecting Francis as Pope, or that a remnant apart from the visible, structural Church is going to carry on the faith - that is essentially what most non-Catholics already believe they're doing. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the Church today acts like a human institution with no supernatural origin or guidance.  Like I said, plain, visible reality has led me to this conclusion.  I didn't go looking for conspiracies or trying to find a reason to leave or question the faith.  But after several years of constant confusion in the Church, it's the conclusion I've come to unless proven wrong.
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#13
Its become increasingly clear to me that Archbishop Lefebvre was right, and I thank God for having given him the courage and grace to found the SSPX. Because of his labors, which were without a doubt very difficult and trying for him, we have today a small remnant part of the Church that holds fast the Orthodox Catholic Faith. I'm not just talking about the SSPX either; I know full well the FSSP and the Institute of Chirst the King wouldn't have come into being without Archbishop Lefebvre. So obviously God has not abandoned us. God always saves a remnant, that theme is all over the Old Testamant.

I cant make sense of the Conciliar Popes. I dont know how to square it with Papl Infallibility. They've obviously taught error, and I don't understand how this all works out. All I can see is that a diabolical spell has swept over a large part of the Church, including Rome, and the faith is in eclipse. This is the Great Apostasy warned of in scripture. It is humanly speaking impossible to restore the Church. I almost think God has brought us to this low of a point in order to drive us to abandon all human hope and place our hopes only and completely in him. Eventually divine intervention is going to end this crisis, and it's going to be ugly. Read the Apocalypse, because we are living through it now. Dont give up hope, God always saves a remnant. Even if they suppress the traditional mass anew, the SSPX will still be there, and we can still be faithful Catholics with a true mass and true sacraments unto the end.

As a final note, no Catholic is obliged to follow the Pope into sin. Heresy and apostasy are sins against faith. I will never follow any Pope into sins against faith!

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#14
(10-12-2019, 10:56 AM)LionHippo Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 10:26 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Except for the fact that without the Church, we're all going to hell. All of us. We're not supposed to be worried. But we are supposed to keep the Faith.

Guidance, yes and she still does. Comfort? Well, yes if it's in the hope of Heaven. I don't think the Holy Family had much comfort. Are we better than them that our families should have it easier?
 
The point I am at right now is questioning the entire truth of the faith, to be honest.  I did not come to this point lightly or without great reflection.  So to me, even the concept of salvation, heaven and hell rests upon the proceedings of the institutional, visible Church.  I've been too stubborn to admit this in the past, but the infancy narratives of the Holy Family are most likely not historical anyway, so using that as a reference does not really help me.  I'm just keeping it simple: for me, it depends on what changes after this Amazon Synod.  I had to put a line somewhere, and this is what I chose.  A case can already be made that over the last 50 years, the visible, institutional Church is so fractured from the previous centuries of her history that effectively, there is no continuity of tradition or teaching.  I do not subscribe to any theory rejecting Francis as Pope, or that a remnant apart from the visible, structural Church is going to carry on the faith - that is essentially what most non-Catholics already believe they're doing. 

In recent years, I have held onto my faith more out of stubborness than love of it.  The faith and the sacraments logically work like placebos:  if you believe in them, then you'll live like they make a difference in your life.  It is an exercise of the human mind and not any supernatural grace, in my current opinion, to have faith.  For example, I have received the Eucharist at least weekly for over three decades; if it were truly supernatural, if I were truly consuming the Body and Blood of Christ, then logically I should not feel this way.  But I can turn it on and off at will.  When I think the Eucharist is doing something for me, I'll act like it makes a difference.  Priests and bishops who have been ordained, who have the ability to turn bread into the Body of Christ, should not be evil or promoting errors or confusion in the Church.  Trying to justify and explain why one must "cooperate with grace" is just theological rhetoric.  "Cooperating with grace" is just another way of saying that you are acting in the way you've already predetermined to be true.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but all signs of the Church today show it to be a human institution with no supernatural origin or guidance.  Like I said, plain, visible reality has led me to this conclusion.  I didn't go looking for conspiracies or trying to find a reason to leave or question the faith.  But after several years of constant confusion in the Church, it's the conclusion I've come to unless proven wrong.

There's two elements to the Church: the human and the divine. One's perfect, the other isn't. God has graced us with beautiful examples of the Faith through the lives of countless saints and miracles. Look to those for your examples. The bible is the inerrant word of God. It's completely 100% reliable. All of it.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#15
I've started to dislike the analogy of a schismatic church ("Conciliar Church, "Synodal Church") inside the true Church and acting like we're some pure remnant of orthodoxy. Hate to break it to you, but we (at least most of us) are in communion with these bishops, we are all in the same screwed up boat. Being in the Catholic Church has always been very messy and unpleasant.
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#16
double post, sorry.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#17
(10-12-2019, 11:44 AM)Florus Wrote: I've started to dislike the analogy of a schismatic church ("Conciliar Church, "Synodal Church") inside the true Church and acting like we're some pure remnant of orthodoxy. Hate to break it to you, but we (at least most of us) are in communion with these bishops, we are all in the same screwed up boat. Being in the Catholic Church has always been very messy and unpleasant.


Quote:Matthew 13: [30] Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

I think you guys need to stop belly aching and suck it up. A little complaining, yeah I get that. This Faith isn't for wimps, you know? It's a gorgeous day; go out and enjoy. Enjoy the beauty of the seasons changing. Have a glass of wine and a good steak if you can. It would do you good.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#18
(10-12-2019, 11:44 AM)Florus Wrote: I've started to dislike the analogy of a schismatic church ("Conciliar Church, "Synodal Church") inside the true Church and acting like we're some pure remnant of orthodoxy. Hate to break it to you, but we (at least most of us) are in communion with these bishops, we are all in the same screwed up boat. Being in the Catholic Church has always been very messy and unpleasant.

The more that I have studied Church history, the more that I've concluded that the present-day crisis is hardly unprecedented.  I've noticed a tendency among some traditionalists to see a sort of golden age before Vatican II, but that isn't the case.  We can look to the New Testament to see problems in Church history, such as St. Peter bowing to the pressure of the Judaizers and breaking table fellowship with Gentiles.  This action led St. Paul to rebuke the first pope.  The mistakes, errors, and failures of the popes that would follow could probably fill up several books.  Ultramontanism has morphed from a legitimate reaction to the Gallicans into a papolatry that has the Faith's foundation crumble if a pope is lousy.  I will not allow my faith to be destroyed by the actions of Pope Francis or by my inability to come up with an adequate resolution to how this all happened in the first place.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#19
Amen, Seeker. I'm with you.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#20
(10-12-2019, 12:02 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(10-12-2019, 11:44 AM)Florus Wrote: I've started to dislike the analogy of a schismatic church ("Conciliar Church, "Synodal Church") inside the true Church and acting like we're some pure remnant of orthodoxy. Hate to break it to you, but we (at least most of us) are in communion with these bishops, we are all in the same screwed up boat. Being in the Catholic Church has always been very messy and unpleasant.

The more that I have studied Church history, the more that I've concluded that the present-day crisis is hardly unprecedented.  I've noticed a tendency among some traditionalists to see a sort of golden age before Vatican II, but that isn't the case.  We can look to the New Testament to see problems in Church history, such as St. Peter bowing to the pressure of the Judaizers and breaking table fellowship with Gentiles.  This action led St. Paul to rebuke the first pope.  The mistakes, errors, and failures of the popes that would follow could probably fill up several books.  Ultramontanism has morphed from a legitimate reaction to the Gallicans into a papolatry that has the Faith's foundation crumble if a pope is lousy.  I will not allow my faith to be destroyed by the actions of Pope Francis or by my inability to come up with an adequate resolution to how this all happened in the first place.
You're right. The Catholic Church never had this level of awareness of every word and act of the Pope until the modern age. Now that it has become clear that the Pope is just as fallible and imperfect as any other man, it has resulted in many to despair when any sort of concerns arise in the hierarchy.

That being said, what we are seeing today is not something that will be a small footnote in history.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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