Infants Who Die Without Baptism
#11
Your entire emotional appeal hinges on God torturing babies yet you simultaneously hold that God is still evil even if Limbo of the Infants is real in which case babies are not tortured?

Makes sense to me.

Not.
Ave Christus Rex!
[-] The following 3 users Like Some Guy's post:
  • Augustinian, jovan66102, yablabo
Reply
#12
(11-01-2019, 06:55 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: According to the Council of Florence anyone who is circumcised for any reason can not be saved as well.

False.  Absolutely false.
[-] The following 1 user Likes yablabo's post:
  • Some Guy
Reply
#13
One who dies in a state without sanctifying grace is not fit for Heaven. A baby who dies before Baptism (whether of Blood, Desire, or Sacramental) has the stain of Original Sin on his soul, is without sanctifying grace, and is not fit for Heaven. Whereas God has made no revelation that He pardons all those who die without Baptism, all we can do is leave them to His mercy, but resign ourselves to the fact that they're most probably (without an act of God aforementiond) in Limbo -- which because it is without Happiness and the Beatific Vision, is a lesser part of Hell.
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
Pray the Rosary

A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
[-] The following 3 users Like ServusDei's post:
  • jovan66102, Some Guy, yablabo
Reply
#14
(11-01-2019, 10:07 AM)ServusDei Wrote: One who dies in a state without sanctifying grace is not fit for Heaven. A baby who dies before Baptism (whether of Blood, Desire, or Sacramental) has the stain of Original Sin on his soul, is without sanctifying grace, and is not fit for Heaven. Whereas God has made no revelation that He pardons all those who die without Baptism, all we can do is leave them to His mercy, but resign ourselves to the fact that they're most probably (without an act of God aforementiond) in Limbo -- which because it is without Happiness and the Beatific Vision, is a lesser part of Hell.

This is why young couples used to be taught how to identify cellular or fetal remains from a miscarriage and conduct a conditional baptism if current life could not be determined in what was found, or a baptism if the fetus/premature baby was obviously yet alive.
[-] The following 2 users Like yablabo's post:
  • jovan66102, Some Guy
Reply
#15
(11-01-2019, 07:40 AM)JosefSilouan Wrote: There is a scholastic principle: "Deus non ligatur sacramentis", which means: God is not bound by the sacraments. We are bound to them, but God is not. If he chooses to save an unbaptized baby, He can do it. But we don't have a guarantee that He will do it, other than our belief in His mercy.

The only scholastic application of this is the relief of eternal punishment in a penitent prior to confession of a mortal sin due to a perfect contrition.  However, until this person receives absolution according to the Sacrament of Penance, he cannot receive the Eucharist.

There is even a position attributed to St. Thomas Aquinas that were he to commit a mortal sin, he would not go to bed that night without a prior sacramental confession which shows how much stock he put into the scholastic principle which no one could confirm had ever been applied to a single human person on the face of the earth since the beginning.

This is never applied to:

1) ministration or reception of Confirmation
2) confection of the Eucharist
3) ministration or reception of Extreme Unction
4) ministration or reception of Holy Orders
5) ministration of Holy Matrimony
6) ministration or reception of Holy Baptism

Part of participation in the divine life is the responsibility to act, and to act in communion with other people for the sake of God.  If we choose to be reticent and leave it up to God, then we're choosing to allow the natural consequences which God has already told us will occur for non-action.
[-] The following 1 user Likes yablabo's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#16
As vile as Jack Chick's heretical tracks were, I have to concede that he viewed the fate of aborted children in a positive light. Obviously an aborted child can not hear the Gospel, which Chick believed accepting was required, but he did one track where Jesus is damming an abortion provider to Hell.  Jesus also tells the guy that his victims are in Heaven.

Strangely enough, Jack Chick the anti-Catholic heretic strengthened by belief in Limbo, eternal natural happiness.

As the Grateful Dead sang: "Once in awhile you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
Reply
#17
I'm no expert, but this what I've picked up over the years on this subject: we all inherit original sin.  The consequence of that is being deprived of the Beatific Vision (i.e. eternal separation from God).  Our actual sins determine the degree of our punishment in Hell (if we end up damned, that is).  Infants who die without baptism have no actual sins and so merit no punishment in that sense.  Limbo, then, is a place in Hell in which its occupants are in a state of perfect natural knowledge and so perfect natural happiness.

Here is an article in the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm.

This is notable, I think, for our question:


Quote:This means that St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned, and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all, so mild indeed that one may not say that for them non-existence would be preferable to existence in such a state (Of Sin and Merit I.21; Contra Jul. V, 44; etc.). But this Augustinian teaching was an innovation in its day, and the history of subsequent Catholic speculation on this subject is taken up chiefly with the reaction which has ended in a return to the pre-Augustinian tradition.

Quote:It should be noted, however, that this poena damni incurred for original sin implied, with Abelard and most of the early Scholastics, a certain degree of spiritual torment, and that St. Thomas was the first great teacher who broke away completely from the Augustinian tradition on this subject, and relying on the principle, derived through the Pseudo-Dionysius from the Greek Fathers, that human nature as such with all its powers and rights was unaffected by the Fall (quod naturalia manent integra), maintained, at least virtually, what the great majority of later Catholic theologians have expressly taught, that the limbus infantium is a place or state of perfect natural happiness.

The idea that infants in Limbo are in some kind of misery, however mild, appears as an innovation in St. Augustine's writings and fell out of favor with Catholic theologians, including St. Thomas Aquinas.  When we take the position of St. Thomas Aquinas, the problem of unbaptized babies in Limbo/Hell isn't very problematic, at least to me.  If we take the position of St. Augustine, it seems difficult to understand how God is Just.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
[-] The following 3 users Like SeekerofChrist's post:
  • jovan66102, redneckpride4ever, Some Guy
Reply
#18
In all these controversies I think it's generally the safer course to stick to the traditional teaching. The traditional teaching in this case is Limbo. As far as I understand it, Limbo is one of the lower realms where the just before Christ prior to his descent, and the unbaptised infants now, dwell in a state of perfect natural happiness. I accept this as the fate of the unbaptised infants. When in doubt, stick to tradition.

That said I do not at all understand how the resurrection at the end of the world figures into this. It is dogma that every person ever created will reunite with their bodies at the resurrection. Purgatory will be emptied and cease to exist at this time. No "body" will ever be in purgatory, it exists only for the purification of justified souls. It seems "bodies" will only exist in heaven or hell. It seems that all the lower realms excepting hell, namely purgatory and limbo, will be emptied and cease to exist at the resurrection. So what happens to the resurrected unbaptised infants?!

Perhaps we can hope that somehow, in ways known only to him, God will permit them to enter heaven at the resurrection. Or perhaps, somehow, there will be bodies in limbo. I dont know, it really is a mystery. But I'm certain that no unbaptised infant not guilty of mortal sin will ever suffer the fires of hell.

Sent from my SM-J260T1 using Tapatalk
[-] The following 2 users Like 1Faith's post:
  • jovan66102, redneckpride4ever
Reply
#19
(11-01-2019, 11:58 AM)1Faith Wrote: In all these controversies I think it's generally the safer course to stick to the traditional teaching. The traditional teaching in this case is Limbo. As far as I understand it, Limbo is one of the lower realms where the just before Christ prior to his descent, and the unbaptised infants now, dwell in a state of perfect natural happiness. I accept this as the fate of the unbaptised infants. When in doubt, stick to tradition.

That said I do not at all understand how the resurrection at the end of the world figures into this. It is dogma that every person ever created will reunite with their bodies at the resurrection. Purgatory will be emptied and cease to exist at this time. No "body" will ever be in purgatory, it exists only for the purification of justified souls. It seems "bodies" will only exist in heaven or hell. It seems that all the lower realms excepting hell, namely purgatory and limbo, will be emptied and cease to exist at the resurrection. So what happens to the resurrected unbaptised infants?!

Perhaps we can hope that somehow, in ways known only to him, God will permit them to enter heaven at the resurrection. Or perhaps, somehow, there will be bodies in limbo. I dont know, it really is a mystery. But I'm certain that no unbaptised infant not guilty of mortal sin will ever suffer the fires of hell.

Sent from my SM-J260T1 using Tapatalk

There are only four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

Purgatory is a place in hell just as Limbo is a place in hell just as the abode of the damned is in hell.  So, it stands to reason that bodies could abide in Limbo, just as they could at any other place in hell.  There is no "in between" place.
Reply
#20
I always wondered, could a baby be baptized in the womb?
:monstrance:Deo Gratias et Ave Maria! :monstrance:
Pray the Rosary

A Dieu mon ame,
Mon arme au roi,
Mon Coeur a la dame,
Mon honneur a moi!
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)