Infants Who Die Without Baptism
#41
(11-02-2019, 07:50 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: We must remember in the early Church there was debate over baptism of infants into the second century, so it's not totally clear.  Can someone enter Heaven without baptism?

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did.

Would the rules of today's Church allow for the thief on the cross to go to Heaven - he wasn't baptized?

That sounds like it qualifies as Baptism of Blood, and/or Desire.
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#42
(11-01-2019, 10:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Amen, and again, why not kill them in the womb to be absolutely certain they go to heaven? If they are born, and survive to the age of reason, they may end up in the other place.

This is such a leap and doesn't follow from the belief that unbaptized infants go to heaven. We believe that baptized infants go to heaven, it doesn't follow from that that we should kill them so they go to heaven.
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#43
(11-02-2019, 01:59 PM)Florus Wrote: This is such a leap and doesn't follow from the belief that unbaptized infants go to heaven. We believe that baptized infants go to heaven, it doesn't follow from that that we should kill them so they go to heaven.

Exactly.  Why not kill them in the womb so they will certainly go to heaven?  The same reason we don't baptize them and then immediately drown them in the font.
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#44
(11-02-2019, 01:59 PM)Florus Wrote:
(11-01-2019, 10:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Amen, and again, why not kill them in the womb to be absolutely certain they go to heaven? If they are born, and survive to the age of reason, they may end up in the other place.

This is such a leap and doesn't follow from the belief that unbaptized infants go to heaven. We believe that baptized infants go to heaven, it doesn't follow from that that we should kill them so they go to heaven.

That's very true.  Catholic moral theology doesn't allow us to commit evil even if something good might result from it, e.g. killing someone right after baptism so they can go to Heaven.  My concern with the idea that unbaptized babies go to Heaven is whether it is consistent with traditional Catholic teaching on baptism.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether it is or isn't, but I still do not see anything problematic with Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness for unbaptized infants.
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#45
(11-02-2019, 02:09 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(11-02-2019, 01:59 PM)Florus Wrote:
(11-01-2019, 10:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Amen, and again, why not kill them in the womb to be absolutely certain they go to heaven? If they are born, and survive to the age of reason, they may end up in the other place.

This is such a leap and doesn't follow from the belief that unbaptized infants go to heaven. We believe that baptized infants go to heaven, it doesn't follow from that that we should kill them so they go to heaven.

That's very true.  Catholic moral theology doesn't allow us to commit evil even if something good might result from it, e.g. killing someone right after baptism so they can go to Heaven.  My concern with the idea that unbaptized babies go to Heaven is whether it is consistent with traditional Catholic teaching on baptism.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether it is or isn't, but I still do not see anything problematic with Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness for unbaptized infants.

I was being hyperbolic, but I'm quite sure that if Limbo is 'abolished' in favour of the heresy of unbaptised infants going to heaven, it will become even more difficult to save the lives of the unborn. Ultrasound says there's a problem? Just abort. He'll go to heaven anyway. Money tight because you've got two already? Just abort. She'll go to heaven anyway. Pregnancy getting in the way of that big promotion? Just abort. He'll go to heaven anyway.
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#46
Markie Boy

Quote:We must remember in the early Church there was debate over baptism of infants into the second century, so it's not totally clear.


Yes it is. Florence decided the question. There was debate on a lot of things in the Early Church that were later settled. This is one of them.


Quote:Can someone enter Heaven without baptism?

The thief on the cross next to Jesus did.

So you believe unbaptised children might go to heaven, but you don't believe in BOD? It seems to me that St Dismas (Feast Day 25 March) is a prime example of it.

The Gospel according to St Luke 23:

Quote:40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.
42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
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#47
(11-02-2019, 07:50 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: If Jesus would make an exception for a thief on a cross who was un-baptized - why would He not make an exception for an infant who is unbaptized?  I'd like a direct answer to this question please.

Because the thief made an explicit act of faith in Jesus, and accepted his death on the cross as deserved for his crimes. That's probably baptism of desire or blood.

But I'm still not convinced baptism was required yet, as the Old Law was still in effect. The Old Law wasn't finished until Jesus said it was: "Consummatum est", as he died on the Cross.
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#48
(11-02-2019, 04:05 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-02-2019, 02:09 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(11-02-2019, 01:59 PM)Florus Wrote:
(11-01-2019, 10:44 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Amen, and again, why not kill them in the womb to be absolutely certain they go to heaven? If they are born, and survive to the age of reason, they may end up in the other place.

This is such a leap and doesn't follow from the belief that unbaptized infants go to heaven. We believe that baptized infants go to heaven, it doesn't follow from that that we should kill them so they go to heaven.

That's very true.  Catholic moral theology doesn't allow us to commit evil even if something good might result from it, e.g. killing someone right after baptism so they can go to Heaven.  My concern with the idea that unbaptized babies go to Heaven is whether it is consistent with traditional Catholic teaching on baptism.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to say whether it is or isn't, but I still do not see anything problematic with Limbo as a place of perfect natural happiness for unbaptized infants.

I was being hyperbolic, but I'm quite sure that if Limbo is 'abolished' in favour of the heresy of unbaptised infants going to heaven, it will become even more difficult to save the lives of the unborn. Ultrasound says there's a problem? Just abort. He'll go to heaven anyway. Money tight because you've got two already? Just abort. She'll go to heaven anyway. Pregnancy getting in the way of that big promotion? Just abort. He'll go to heaven anyway.

The people who would abort for those reasons don't believe in heaven or hell.
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#49
(11-02-2019, 04:43 PM)Paul Wrote: But I'm still not convinced baptism was required yet, as the Old Law was still in effect. The Old Law wasn't finished until Jesus said it was: "Consummatum est", as he died on the Cross.

Good catch, Paul! I hadn't thought of that.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
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#50
(11-02-2019, 04:49 PM)Melkite Wrote: The people who would abort for those reasons don't believe in heaven or hell.

You have a very different view of human nature than I do, obviously.
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