How do the Orthodox go to hell if their sacraments are valid?
#1
I understand that they go to hell because they are schismatics and are outside of the Church.  However, if they have valid sacraments, how can they validly receive confession and still not be in a state of grace?
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#2
(11-08-2019, 11:07 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I understand that they go to hell because they are schismatics and are outside of the Church.  However, if they have valid sacraments, how can they validly receive confession and still not be in a state of grace?

If you go to confession without resolving to leave your sins behind, the confession isn't valid and won't save from hell. 

I guess another way of thinking of it is this: all sacraments besides baptism only really save if you're in the Church and have the right dispositions. Because the Orthodox aren't really part of the Church, their sacraments can't save.
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#3
(11-09-2019, 04:33 AM)GoodKingWenceslas Wrote:
(11-08-2019, 11:07 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I understand that they go to hell because they are schismatics and are outside of the Church.  However, if they have valid sacraments, how can they validly receive confession and still not be in a state of grace?

If you go to confession without resolving to leave your sins behind, the confession isn't valid and won't save from hell. 

I guess another way of thinking of it is this: all sacraments besides baptism only really save if you're in the Church and have the right dispositions. Because the Orthodox aren't really part of the Church, their sacraments can't save.
Is this the traditional teaching of the Church? That all orthodox go to hell for being schismatics? I mean, a Catholic defecting to an Orthodox Church is an apostate and will certainly go to hell, but people born in the an Orthodox Church are material heretics at worst. Doesn't that at all factor into their salvation? Or am I just stuck in Novus Ordo speak?
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#4
(11-09-2019, 06:46 AM)ThatGladTrad Wrote: Is this the traditional teaching of the Church? That all orthodox go to hell for being schismatics? I mean, a Catholic defecting to an Orthodox Church is an apostate and will certainly go to hell, but people born in the an Orthodox Church are material heretics at worst. Doesn't that at all factor into their salvation? Or am I just stuck in Novus Ordo speak?

I was thinking the same thing.  There aren't too many things they're off base on, and their arguments are pretty good considering the turmoil in the Church right now.

This is one of those thing where I struggle with intuition vs Church teaching.
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#5
(11-09-2019, 12:30 PM)jack89 Wrote: I was thinking the same thing.  There aren't too many things they're off base on, and their arguments are pretty good considering the turmoil in the Church right now.

This is one of those thing where I struggle with intuition vs Church teaching.

I'm looking at the My Catholic Faith book published by the SSPX's Angelus Press and it says that Pr*testants who make a perfect act of contrition at their death and who did not have doubts about their faith go to heaven.  I don't see why that would not be true of the Orthodox as well, who have access to additional sacraments beyond what the Pr*ds have.  I assume it specifically addressed P-words because they are more prevalent in Western countries.  It seems like the question of them going to heaven turns on whether or not they *truly* believed that the Catholic Church was not the true Church.  If a Pr*d had doubts but decided not to be Catholic because it was simply easier to stay a Pr*d, he goes to hell.  

Assuming that this is how it works, maybe that explains how one can have an Orthodox confession and truly be in a state of grace.  I have no reason not to trust a book published by the SSPX, so...?
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#6
I go with the conclusions of Rev. Garrigou-LaGrange; that the baptized have a potential for salvation , but the real issue lies in those Protestants who wind up in purgatory without anyone to pray for them.
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#7
(11-08-2019, 11:07 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I understand that they go to hell because they are schismatics and are outside of the Church.  However, if they have valid sacraments, how can they validly receive confession and still not be in a state of grace?

Heresy, apostasy and schism all cause ipso facto excommunication, whether material or formal sins.  Just to be clear, I am not talking about the canonical crime, which at least in the CIC carry a latae sententiae excommunication. Excommunication requires a rehabilitation outside of the Sacrament of Penance.

Excommunicates are severed from the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore have no eternal inheritance.
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#8
(11-09-2019, 04:01 PM)yablabo Wrote: Heresy, apostasy and schism all cause ipso facto excommunication, whether material or formal sins.  Just to be clear, I am not talking about the canonical crime, which at least in the CIC carry a latae sententiae excommunication.  Excommunication requires a rehabilitation outside of the Sacrament of Penance.

Excommunicates are severed from the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore have no eternal inheritance.

Then what does it mean for the Orthodox to have valid, but illicit, sacraments?  Is it just semantic at that point?
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#9
(11-09-2019, 04:32 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 04:01 PM)yablabo Wrote: Heresy, apostasy and schism all cause ipso facto excommunication, whether material or formal sins.  Just to be clear, I am not talking about the canonical crime, which at least in the CIC carry a latae sententiae excommunication.  Excommunication requires a rehabilitation outside of the Sacrament of Penance.

Excommunicates are severed from the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore have no eternal inheritance.

Then what does it mean for the Orthodox to have valid, but illicit, sacraments?  Is it just semantic at that point?

It means that relatively speaking they're worse off spiritually than the protestants, as to those who are given more, more is expected in return.

For some reason, they're legalistic enough that they've preserved their priestly orders and apostolic succession, but not to their benefit as they choose to remain outside of the Church from generation to generation.

It's not semantics.  Their sacraments are valid when the requirements (form, matter, and minister with intention to do as the Church does) are met, just as some protestants have a valid baptism.
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#10
Quote:How do the Orthodox go to hell if their sacraments are valid?
Sin? 

Quote: I mean, a Catholic defecting to an Orthodox Church is an apostate and will certainly go to hell...

Unless we've actually entered the fullness of the Church, rather than defect from it.  Wink   
Actually, I thought the Catholic Church differentiated between acts of schism vs. acts of apostasy, with apostasy defined as complete renunciation of Christ.  Maybe I'm wrong on that.  Although I believe there's also an old papal bull that says all schismatics also go to hell full stop, so maybe it's your teaching either way.  

Quote:I'm looking at the My Catholic Faith book published by the SSPX's Angelus Press and it says that Pr*testants who make a perfect act of contrition at their death and who did not have doubts about their faith go to heaven.  I don't see why that would not be true of the Orthodox as well, who have access to additional sacraments beyond what the Pr*ds have.

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that from the SSPX.  

I'm curious about the dr*pping of the "o" in Pr*testant.  Is that customary in some circles?  I've never seen that before.

God bless you all.  Tip o' the hat
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