Why do you think God allows the crisis in the Church?
#1
I know we can never really know for sure, but what do you think?  Personally, my thoughts on this are informed by my experience in Orthodoxy, where I saw a dead, pale, unenthusiastic, declining population.  I wonder if V*tican II had not happened if the entire Church would be as milquetoast as the Orthodox are.  Traditional Catholics are a small group, but they are a vibrant and enthusiastic community.  Moreover, the trad clergy are fiercely orthodox and politically sound.  I was struck by just how liberal and modernist the Orthodox clergy were, even despite the maintenance of relatively traditional/orthodox liturgics and theology.

I know many here see the Orthodox Church in terms of greener grass, at least in some ways.  I can only speak to my personal experience with it, but that was really not the case.  It highlights how in contrast a crisis like the one we're experiencing can make people appreciate what they have/what was lost in ways that they might not if they could take the Tridentine Mass and orthodox Catholic theology for granted.
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#2
There are many clergy and religious out there who are unfaithful to the Church, but will pretend to be so when it suits them. The current situation in the Church allows them to show their true colors, perhaps so that those who truly love the Church do not look to them for guidance.
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#3
First, I believe that the present crisis in the Church, which began in the wake of Vatican 2, is preternatural ultimately. It is most certainly the work of Satan. God in his wisdom has permitted Satan to run rampant in the Church at this moment, and I believe this is ultimately as a punishment for sin. The greatest chastisement God can visit upon his people is to give them bad pastors. You will find this happening in the Old Testament, the people give into licentiousness and idolatry, and God sends them leaders who confirm them in their sin and tickle their itching ears.

For how long have the Popes been condemning the errors of the modern world and urging Catholics to walk the straight path? Ever since the diabolical French Revolution the Holy See was condemning the errors and calling Catholics to the straight path. And yet, the Catholic people in large part ignored the warnings and the calls and gave themselves over to modern errors and iniquity. The culmination of this disobedience resulted in the Great Apostasy we see unfolding today. For so long the Catholic people said "no" to the magisterium, and so now in this present epoch the prelates themselves, in their majority, have fallen prey to the same errors and sins and are now confirming the people in the same. Since call after loving call went unheeded, God withdrew grace, and gave us the leaders we deserve.

The Devil has been permitted to corrupt the clerics of the Church and use them to lead countless Catholics in the path of perdition, and this is a just punishment for the sins of the people. Yet God always saves a remnant, this is also clear from the Old Testament. God has to this day preserved a few orthodox bishops, a few orthodox priests, a few orthodox parishes, and a remnant of orthodox faithful. God in his mercy and providence liberated the Roman Rite from the suppression under which it suffered for decades, just in time for the disastrous pontificate of Francis. Things have been so arranged by God's mercy that those who sincerely seek him and desire to live out the faith, can do so. Yet for the bulk of the people, who cling to the errors of the modern world and refuse to repent and do penance, God gives them over to their lusts and gives them pastors who will lead them along the broad road they have chosen.

So the Great Apostasy in the Church under which we live, foretold by St. Paul in scripture, is at once the work of the Devil and the effect of the wrath of God against his apostate people. God brings good out of it though, and by grace enlightens, sanctifies, and fortifies a remnant people for himself. This crisis will culminate in a great material chastisement, announced by our Lady of Akita and by our Lady of Fatima, in which the sins of this world will be punished by fire and blood. In the wake of this destruction and desolation Anti-Christ will come and the persecution of God's faithful will begin, and after this final chastisement we will witness the Triumph of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart, the restoration of the Church, and an age of peace before the end of all things and the Day of Judgement.

That's my take anyway!
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#4
(11-09-2019, 03:39 PM)1Faith Wrote: First, I believe that the present crisis in the Church, which began in the wake of Vatican 2, is preternatural ultimately. It is most certainly the work of Satan. God in his wisdom has permitted Satan to run rampant in the Church at this moment, and I believe this is ultimately as a punishment for sin. The greatest chastisement God can visit upon his people is to give them bad pastors. You will find this happening in the Old Testament, the people give into licentiousness and idolatry, and God sends them leaders who confirm them in their sin and tickle their itching ears.

For how long have the Popes been condemning the errors of the modern world and urging Catholics to walk the straight path? Ever since the diabolical French Revolution the Holy See was condemning the errors and calling Catholics to the straight path. And yet, the Catholic people in large part ignored the warnings and the calls and gave themselves over to modern errors and iniquity. The culmination of this disobedience resulted in the Great Apostasy we see unfolding today. For so long the Catholic people said "no" to the magisterium, and so now in this present epoch the prelates themselves, in their majority, have fallen prey to the same errors and sins and are now confirming the people in the same. Since call after loving call went unheeded, God withdrew grace, and gave us the leaders we deserve.

The Devil has been permitted to corrupt the clerics of the Church and use them to lead countless Catholics in the path of perdition, and this is a just punishment for the sins of the people. Yet God always saves a remnant, this is also clear from the Old Testament. God has to this day preserved a few orthodox bishops, a few orthodox priests, a few orthodox parishes, and a remnant of orthodox faithful. God in his mercy and providence liberated the Roman Rite from the suppression under which it suffered for decades, just in time for the disastrous pontificate of Francis. Things have been so arranged by God's mercy that those who sincerely seek him and desire to live out the faith, can do so. Yet for the bulk of the people, who cling to the errors of the modern world and refuse to repent and do penance, God gives them over to their lusts and gives them pastors who will lead them along the broad road they have chosen.

So the Great Apostasy in the Church under which we live, foretold by St. Paul in scripture, is at once the work of the Devil and the effect of the wrath of God against his apostate people. God brings good out of it though, and by grace enlightens, sanctifies, and fortifies a remnant people for himself. This crisis will culminate in a great material chastisement, announced by our Lady of Akita and by our Lady of Fatima, in which the sins of this world will be punished by fire and blood. In the wake of this destruction and desolation Anti-Christ will come and the persecution of God's faithful will begin, and after this final chastisement we will witness the Triumph of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart, the restoration of the Church, and an age of peace before the end of all things and the Day of Judgement.

That's my take anyway!

You may be right, and I think in general people don't look enough to the Old Testament to understand the Church's journey in current times.
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#5
For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you.

[1 Corinthians 11:19]
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#6
(11-09-2019, 01:07 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I was struck by just how liberal and modernist the Orthodox clergy were, even despite the maintenance of relatively traditional/orthodox liturgics and theology.

What jurisdiction were you if you don't mind me asking?  Because yes, there are definitely liberal and traditional factions within Orthodoxy just like Catholicism, and the EP Bartholomew & Co. are just as into the "Green" Environmentalist, globalist, and new world order stuff as Francis and his fan club.  But just as you can't judge Catholicism on the basis of Francis and the many heretic priests, neither can you judge Orthodoxy that way.

I agree that the grass isn't nearly as green on our side as some Catholics might think it is.  We have our own struggles without a doubt.
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#7
Free Will.
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#8
(11-09-2019, 05:35 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(11-09-2019, 01:07 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I was struck by just how liberal and modernist the Orthodox clergy were, even despite the maintenance of relatively traditional/orthodox liturgics and theology.

What jurisdiction were you if you don't mind me asking?  Because yes, there are definitely liberal and traditional factions within Orthodoxy just like Catholicism, and the EP Bartholomew & Co. are just as into the "Green" Environmentalist, globalist, and new world order stuff as Francis and his fan club.  But just as you can't judge Catholicism on the basis of Francis and the many heretic priests, neither can you judge Orthodoxy that way.

I agree that the grass isn't nearly as green on our side as some Catholics might think it is.  We have our own struggles without a doubt.

Thank you for sharing this.  I have really been looking at Orthodoxy as that Greener Grass.  But having no local Orthodox Church to visit, I only know Orthodoxy via the internet.

In the OT times like we have were punishment for disobedience.  That disobedience could be the division East and West - which both sides have guilt for, but are too proud to admit.  

This division has led to division among those both East and West, which has led to our Churches being less effective in the world.  "If we are too busy using our sickles on each other, we'll miss the harvest".

Look - who's Church is effective against abortion or the attach on marriage via the LGBTQI movement?  The RCC has so little credibility left due to it's inner scandals, and embracing modernism.  

Has the RCC been disobedient - yes.  Has Orthodoxy - I have no personal experience, but it seems some yes as well.
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#9
Well, we must surrender the situation to Providence.
“Why?”, I don’t know, but God does.
It could very well be God is showing us that, no matter how hopeless things may become, the Church will prevail.
I think many are nostalgic for, or deeply desire, a strong, Catholic Kingdom on Earth.
That’s a good desire, but, the first priority is not the external Kingdom, but the internal Kingdom.
That should give us all cause to reflect. Do I do all things for Christ? Is Christ King of my heart, mind, and will? Do I seek God in contemplative silence and prayer? Or, do I waste countless time on “entertainment” and other frivolous nonsense? Am I merciful as God is merciful to me? Or, am I sulky and passive aggressive when insulted (if not outright hateful and angry).
If we want a strong Church on Earth, we ought make sure that within we’re not filled with dead men’s bones, while presenting an exterior of holiness. 
Who knows, maybe once we’ve sorted out our own hearts, God will grant us a Church filled with holy members. But it begins with your own heart.
As I said earlier, we must surrender the situation to Providence, and live holy lives, regardless of what’s going on around us.

(Edited for grammar, and spelling corrections).
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#10
(11-10-2019, 10:00 AM)Markie Boy Wrote: Thank you for sharing this.  I have really been looking at Orthodoxy as that Greener Grass.  But having no local Orthodox Church to visit, I only know Orthodoxy via the internet.

In the OT times like we have were punishment for disobedience.  That disobedience could be the division East and West - which both sides have guilt for, but are too proud to admit.  

This division has led to division among those both East and West, which has led to our Churches being less effective in the world.  "If we are too busy using our sickles on each other, we'll miss the harvest".

Look - who's Church is effective against abortion or the attach on marriage via the LGBTQI movement?  The RCC has so little credibility left due to it's inner scandals, and embracing modernism.  

Has the RCC been disobedient - yes.  Has Orthodoxy - I have no personal experience, but it seems some yes as well.

I think the RCC laity retain a great deal of credibility when it comes to confronting social issues like abortion, LGBTQ agenda, etc.  The hierarchy and the Vatican on the other hand are fighting for the other side, being full-blown puppets for the UN, globalist bankers, the "Green" agenda, and are now clearly moving towards a "one-world" all-inclusive religious movement.  In Orthodoxy, the EP Bartholomew and all the liberal fake Orthodox are right there along with them.  No church is untouched by this cancer.  

Meanwhile, there's a very good reason the Democrat party, Western media, the EU & UN, and all the satanic secular forces of the world hate Russia with a passion right now.  Russian Orthodoxy, while not without flaws, is uncompromising in its resistance to the West's secular humanist nightmare, and is in the early stages of rebuilding a new Christendom, with hundreds of new (and full) monasteries, the reintroduction of Christian curriculum into schools, emphasizing family values and outlawing of LGBQ propaganda to children, etc.  All these things go unreported by the Western media of course.

By the way, I believe the Russian Orthodox Church has also expressed a sense of solidarity with Traditional Roman Catholics and believes that we are in many ways united in the same fight against these modern global threats.
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