Authority of Vatican 2
#31
(11-11-2019, 02:09 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: I never denied papal infallibility either. I said papal infallibility is derived from the infallibility of the Church. Re-read my first comment on this point. Such also brings the doctrine in alignment with the views of the first millennium.

I'm going to interject on this. 

The definition of papal infallibility or the ex cathedra charism is not derived from the infallibility of the Church.

It is a divinely revealed dogma.

To say that from one is derived the other implies a logical progression within the reach of human reason.  That's not the case.  The solemn judgment is quite clear that when the Pope teaches ex cathedra, the Pope possesses the infallibility which the Divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith and morals.  That's it.

That IS the infallibility of the Church in defining doctrine concerning faith and morals.  It sits in the chair of Peter.  It's possessed by the Pope.  Once more stated, THAT'S IT.  There is no other.

The First Vatican Council is available in English and extremely short...definitely worth the read.
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#32
(11-11-2019, 03:25 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: No. Because my understanding on papal infallibility is that being derived from the church, the statements on those local councils that are in conformity with the Church are already orthodox.

No one asked if they were orthodox. I asked why you did not consider them "dogmatic"?

They were approved by the Pope, and intended to bind the whole of the Church as is clear from the text of the Council, not just some local area. Call it Ecumenical or no, that does not matter. The question is are you bound to accept the dogmatic decrees of Trent as dogmatic, or are you free to reject

Also please explain what you mean when you say "papal infallibility is derived from the church". How is derived and in what manner?
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#33
(11-11-2019, 03:26 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: No. Because my understanding on papal infallibility is that being derived from the church,

Then you've been fed a load of bullcrap. The infallibility of the Pope is a Dogma of the Church because it is God's gift to the Church, not something the Church thought up on its own. To claim differently is to put into question all Conciliar decisions, going back to the Council of Jerusalem where it is recorded that the Apostles wrote, 'For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us...' (Acts, 15:28).

If the Church thought up infallibility, the same argument can be made against any dogma, including all those of the Councils that the crypto-orthodox heretics hold as legitimate.
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