Sedevacantism
#41
Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.
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#42
Quote:Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.
Agreed. I give to the Historic Renewal program of the ICKSP parish here, not a dime of that particular fund goes to the diocese. Giving to something like that is a good option.

Otherwise give to the SSPX or a good traditional seminary.

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#43
(11-11-2019, 11:08 PM)1Faith Wrote:
Quote:Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.
Agreed. I give to the Historic Renewal program of the ICKSP parish here, not a dime of that particular fund goes to the diocese. Giving to something like that is a good option.

Otherwise give to the SSPX or a good traditional seminary.

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Redpill me on ICK. It's just occurring to me I know nothing about them. Like, I'm familiar with the SSPX and FSSP history. But how did ICK come about? How big are they? I know their disposition is similar to FSSP,  but that's it.
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#44
Quote:Redpill me on ICK. It's just occurring to me I know nothing about them. Like, I'm familiar with the SSPX and FSSP history. But how did ICK come about? How big are they? I know their disposition is similar to FSSP,  but that's it.
Wikipedia will give you most of the history. They were founded by Msgr. Wach in 1990, their stated aim is the propagation of the reign of Christ in all areas of life, the sanctification of priests and the greater glory of God.

They are an apostolic society of pontifical right, much like the FSSP and dont have bishops of their own. Cardinal Burke ordains their priests, always in the traditional rite. They use the traditional Roman rite exclusively. I believe all their priests also take the oath against modernism.

They are kind of in between the FSSP and the SSPX in a lot of ways. Canonically they are regular like the FSSP. Unlike them however they are dont really ever put down the SSPX and, from my experience, are not too fond of the new chatechism or any of the conciliar novelties. Of course they dont polemicize against the council so as not to draw down the wrath of Rome. But attending one of their parishes is like stepping back in time before Vatican 2.

They are probably the most liturgically traditional society out there, even beyond the SSPX. They have permission from Rome to use the pre-1955 rites of holy week for one, which is really awesome. They are extremely stringent with the rubrics, never read scripture in the vernacular, say the Leonine prayers after every low mass, and will only set up shop in ornate and beautiful churches. Their homilies are all focused on the spiritual life, and they take St. Francis De Sales as their patron. Basically they help you to live a good Catholic life and they teach the orthodox faith very well. Their priests, in my experience, are also absolutely fantastic confessors.

That said, they dont really criticize the modernists in Rome for obvious reasons. Though I did personally hear a scathing homily rebuking the falsehood that God wills all religions, so there is that.

Honestly I love the SSPX and the Institute, I go to the Institute because they are almost literally in my backyard, like walking distance from my apartment.

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#45
(11-11-2019, 10:35 PM)1Faith Wrote: The faith, the faith once for all delivered to the saints, is preeminent over any and all of the pastors of the Church.

Oops, you just made the case for Orthodoxy.  Welcome aboard!  :P 

Kidding aside, many Traditional Catholics these days seem somewhat close in spirit to a kind of Western Orthodoxy without even realizing it.  Mainly through their increasing realization that they as the laity have a strong indwelling sense of what constitutes the Tradition of the Church and that they are just as much guardians of it as the clergy and hierarchy are.  Even many mainstream Catholics are getting a sense that obedience to Tradition trumps obedience to clergy and even Popes.  That is a fairly recent concept spreading through the Catholic world, and it is a healthy and patristic one.
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#46
(11-12-2019, 12:01 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 10:35 PM)1Faith Wrote: The faith, the faith once for all delivered to the saints, is preeminent over any and all of the pastors of the Church.

Oops, you just made the case for Orthodoxy.  Welcome aboard!  :P 

Kidding aside, many Traditional Catholics these days seem somewhat close in spirit to a kind of Western Orthodoxy without even realizing it.  Mainly through their increasing realization that they as the laity have a strong indwelling sense of what constitutes the Tradition of the Church and that they are just as much guardians of it as the clergy and hierarchy are.  Even many mainstream Catholics are getting a sense that obedience to Tradition trumps obedience to clergy and even Popes.  That is a fairly recent concept spreading through the Catholic world, and it is a healthy and patristic one.

I've begun to notice the same thing. Especially once I went SSPX.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#47
I don't want to stir the pot so keep in mind (as if you need any reminder) I'm a loon on the net running around hyperventilating that the sky is falling. 

I am reading and hearing a lot of words here, there and everywhere that advise a sort of half-sedevacantism. I'm sure it isn't intellectual dishonesty but that's how it sounds and perhaps some consideration should be given to that? I do not comprehend how on the one hand people can say "Francis is the Pope and the bishops in communion with him are lawful authorities" and on the other hand suggest what looks like a total withdrawal of obedience and submission to all of them in all things other than lip-service. It's "behave as if the see is vacant and your bishop is a wolf in sheep's clothing but don't say the words that would make that behavior legitimate." Withhold your contributions from the diocese? On what grounds, the bishop is funding immoral and heretical activities? Don't contribute to Peter's Pence for the same reason? Avoid Masses said by priests, appointed by your bishop who is in communion with the Holy See, that are a danger to your faith... how is this a thing? We aren't medieval peasants with absentee bishops who have no clue what's happening in their dioceses. It doesn't take months to get a letter from the chancery to stop being a heretic. We know this because if a parish priest tries doing something Catholic the goons will be there that day to escort him off the property. God help him if he preaches Catholic doctrine.

This isn't through neglect because the bishop is eating himself to death while chasing skirts 1000 miles away. This isn't something that's happening, it's being done. And we're what, four generations of bishops into this? The overwhelming majority of people in the pews on Sundays didn't wake up and embrace heresy one morning spontaneously. They don't believe what the Church teaches about the Blessed Sacrament because the bishops don't believe what the Church teaches about the Blessed Sacrament... and the Church isn't teaching it anymore. And this is where it all falls apart I think, because you're going to say:


Quote:"Of course the Church still teaches what the Church has always taught because we have Scripture and the Councils and Tradition, the saints and doctors of the Church, and they speak with one voice!"


And that's true. They do. Your bishop doesn't speak with that voice though does he? Or his predecessor, or HIS predecessor and probably not even his predecessor. There is precisely one diocesan ordinary in the United States who on any given subject can be expected to say something Catholic and he sounds absolutely petrified. So if your parish priest, your bishop... the Roman pontiff, if they aren't handing down the Faith, if they aren't teaching what the Church teaches, then what are they? The question that applies to all of us certainly applies to them: If on trial for being Catholic what evidence could be used to convict them?

This isn't about reading their hearts or minds, it's seeing their fruits, by which God Himself told us we shall know them. It's not about personal sins, strictly speaking it's not even about public sin. It's also not about bleating for yourself in the face of this insanity. Flocks have rams and for a very long time now the rams have been emasculated. Neutered. Made eunuchs but not for the Kingdom of God. A ram stood up recently and threw idols into the Tiber and the man you scrunch your eyes shut at as you plug your ears with your fingers while proclaiming him the Vicar of Christ disowned him. If he ever was a shepherd he's abandoned his flock and now pimps the Holy Catholic Church to the United Nations. And people sit around saying he's the Pope, we can't lift a finger against him or call him what he is. We can act like he's not the Pope, we just can't say it. It's the very definition of lukewarmness and we know what that means. Ram's horns aren't decorative and while they're generally used against other rams they are turned against aggressors. If we're not facing aggressors then what are they?

We lend legitimacy to this usurpation by sitting by and letting it happen. I know what you're going to say, of course prayer is critical, it's the sine qua non, the breath that keeps us alive. It's also only the beginning. You pray, put on your armor and go slay the dragon, then you go home and praise God for His goodness. 

But no, we must sit and wait for God to rectify this mess supernaturally while ignoring the fact that God has used human agents to do His will all along. While they continue to devour your families, destroying the weak and wavering, we must await Divine intervention. Baloney. If it comes to Divine intervention through supernatural means we are dead. And not dead with a free ticket to Heaven either or have the universalists won? The Apostles were reconciled with Our Lord after they abandoned Him during His Passion but I don't think I want to even hear the question "Where were you when they crucified My Church?"

Unfortunately I'm a coward and I'm quite sure I will hear that question. The churchmen should be placed on notice that we know what they're doing and we're not allowing it any longer. Catholics used to run heretical priests out of town, lock cardinals indoors and generally beat the stuffing out of every cleric who crossed the line. No more. It's no surprise really, we've let them prey on our children for decades why would we do anything when they publicly reject Christ?

There's an idol of moloch in Rome at the coliseum, placed there by the civil authorities. pachamama was worshiped in St Maria Traspontina. An offering to it was placed on the altar of St. Peter's. We're not the Apostles running scared, we're Pilot asking "What is truth?" as we wash our hands. And by "we" I mean "me".
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#48
bored, I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure what you're asking of us.  If what you want me to do is say that he's not the pope, I mean... I dunno it's not like I'm personally opposed to every Catholic in the world turning their back on Francis and demanding he be removed.  But he is what the entire world sees as the pope.  You can't really get around that, and the only thing your personal refusal to acknowledge that will get you is ammunition for others, including this hierarchy, to say you're not Catholic.

I guess I personally just don't care what Francis does.  No one in the hierarchy or anyone on this planet can force you to practice Catholicism a certain way or assent to things you don't want to or make you give them your money.  For every 9 Catholics that leave the Church, they gain 1 member; this is the worst statistic for a religion in the entire United States.  Let them enjoy a slow decline into irrelevancy that turns into a sudden collapse once the baby boomers die for good.  

I agree with you that I don't understand certain compromises people on this site make, but like, who cares?  I would never personally go to an N.O. parish or let my child near a diocesan priest, but if others want to, "Who am I to judge?"  I like the SSPX; I trust them; I probably wouldn't be Catholic AT ALL at this point in my life if they did not exist; I know that I can have a good life with my family and raise my kid well by going there.  I'm not going to pretend to care about much more than that.
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#49
(11-12-2019, 04:29 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: bored, I hear what you're saying but I'm not sure what you're asking of us.  If what you want me to do is say that he's not the pope, I mean... I dunno it's not like I'm personally opposed to every Catholic in the world turning their back on Francis and demanding he be removed.  But he is what the entire world sees as the pope.  You can't really get around that, and the only thing your personal refusal to acknowledge that will get you is ammunition for others, including this hierarchy, to say you're not Catholic.

I guess I personally just don't care what Francis does.  No one in the hierarchy or anyone on this planet can force you to practice Catholicism a certain way or assent to things you don't want to or make you give them your money.  For every 9 Catholics that leave the Church, they gain 1 member; this is the worst statistic for a religion in the entire United States.  Let them enjoy a slow decline into irrelevancy that turns into a sudden collapse once the baby boomers die for good.  

I agree with you that I don't understand certain compromises people on this site make, but like, who cares?  I would never personally go to an N.O. parish or let my child near a diocesan priest, but if others want to, "Who am I to judge?"  I like the SSPX; I trust them; I probably wouldn't be Catholic AT ALL at this point in my life if they did not exist; I know that I can have a good life with my family and raise my kid well by going there.  I'm not going to pretend to care about much more than that.

I don't know what I'm asking of anyone right now other than maybe let your yes be yes and your no be no. My personal refusal to acknowledge what almost everyone else believes does one thing above all others: it allows me to sleep at night, although there wasn't much of that last night. The slow decline into irrelevancy has already cost too many souls. It's been almost 20 years since I came to the horrifying realization that the hierarchy did not have my back as a father. 20 years of telling my children what the Church teaches and what they must do to have eternal life with constant flack from the bishops. Not only have they not had my back but they've contradicted me at every step the entire time. How surreal must it be when your parents take a religion more seriously than the men who appear to run it?
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#50
The Church on earth, in its large majority, is in Apostasy. Let me phrase this carefully. The overwhelming majority of churchmen within the Church are materially in apostasy. They have lost the faith and embraced a new religion, in most cases without even recognizing it. This is indeed a frightful and diabolical crisis, and I'm convinced it is exactly what was revealed in the third secret of fatima.

All of this can be true and Sedevacantism still does not logically follow. This is because precision and distinctions matter. One would loose their office under conditions of formal apostasy. If Francis stood up and publicly repudiated the Nicene Creed, he would be formally in apostasy, and would thereby sever himself from the Church and loose office. In short, formal apostasy is when one publicly and knowingly repudiates the faith.

What we have now is much more diabolical than that. What we have is churchmen who claim to be Catholic, who believe they are Catholic, and who have at the same time lost the faith. They are materially, not formally, in apostasy. Consequently they have not lost office, but at the same time they must not be followed. So yes, I will readily admit we are in uncharted waters. Yet I believe God raised up Archbishop Lefebvre for our times, and he set forth the right course of action. Recognize and resist. Keep the faith, keep the mass of all times, keep the sacraments, and pass these on to our children. Pray for the restoration of Holy Church.

Sedevacantism fails as a position because it fails to correctly understand the crisis. And it fails to understand the crisis because it fails to make the proper Thomistic distinctions; objective and subjective, material and formal. When the prelates are in material, but not formal, apostasy, they all still hold office and yet we cant follow them because we mustn't loose our faith. May God have mercy on his Church.



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