Sedevacantism
#51
(11-11-2019, 11:06 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.

Though people say this, it is not true.
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#52
(11-12-2019, 10:47 AM)yablabo Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 11:06 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.

Though people say this, it is not true.

I... don't really see how that's possible?
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#53
(11-12-2019, 10:57 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(11-12-2019, 10:47 AM)yablabo Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 11:06 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: Also be careful where you donate and advise others to do the same. If one cent of your money goes to the usccb you are complicit.

Though people say this, it is not true.

I... don't really see how that's possible?

The Lepanto Institute's mission is to investigate so-called Catholic charities and causes that give aid to anti-Christian organizations. LifeSiteNews and Church Militant have published a number of their bigger findings over the years.

http://www.lepantoinstitute.org/

Just last year: https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/arti...tion-lgbts

After that story broke, I immediately contacted some conservative priest friends of mine in the SF archdiocese to let them know about it as well as the archbishop. They were astounded to find out about it.
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#54
I don't know if this was ever confirmed anywhere besides the Dictator Pope, but that book also alleged that Peters Pence went to Hillary in 2016. I think the hierarchy wanted, and still wants, the Catholic Church to be to the globalist corporations and DNC what they once were to the Roman Emperor and French Monarchy. 

I dunno yablabo I can't really see your side on this one. More people on this site felt your way when I first joined but the tide of opinion has changed entirely. Even if there were a theological justification for donating to the usccb despite their activities, I wouldn't believe it. 

I wouldn't give money to a drug addict because I know it would enable them. That logic doesn't change just because some homosexual communists took holy orders.
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#55
(11-12-2019, 03:36 PM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote: I don't know if this was ever confirmed anywhere besides the Dictator Pope, but that book also alleged that Peters Pence went to Hillary in 2016. I think the hierarchy wanted, and still wants, the Catholic Church to be to the globalist corporations and DNC what they once were to the Roman Emperor and French Monarchy. 

I dunno yablabo I can't really see your side on this one. More people on this site felt your way when I first joined but the tide of opinion has changed entirely. Even if there were a theological justification for donating to the usccb despite their activities, I wouldn't believe it. 

I wouldn't give money to a drug addict because I know it would enable them. That logic doesn't change just because some homosexual communists took holy orders.

We owe material support to the church by precept.  What the churchmen do with the tithe is their own problem viz. Our Lord.  They don’t dispense the money for us like we’ve given someone else a gift through them.   The money once tithed is theirs, therefore any moral culpability falls on their heads for how it is spent.

The untenable position is to withhold material support...I think it’s even backed up with an excommunication at one of the ecumenical councils.
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#56
(11-12-2019, 11:50 PM)yablabo Wrote: We owe material support to the church by precept.  What the churchmen do with the tithe is their own problem viz. Our Lord.  They don’t dispense the money for us like we’ve given someone else a gift through them.   The money once tithed is theirs, therefore any moral culpability falls on their heads for how it is spent.

The untenable position is to withhold material support...I think it’s even backed up with an excommunication at one of the ecumenical councils.

I'm familiar with this line of argument, but I'm not convinced.  Or more specifically, I'm not convinced that this means I owe money to the USCCB.  In your interpretation, would I be providing material support to the Church by donating to the SSPX?  Because that is what I personally do; that is the compromise I've found with said precept vs. the reality of the Church.  In fact, I was so troubled by trying to find a way to donate to the Church without my money being used for evil that I almost left the Church entirely.  If my way is acceptable to you, we may have common ground.  However, I find the idea that I am not morally culpable for how the money I donate is spent to be... well, I just can't wrap my head around that no matter how hard I try.  Especially given the actual circumstances in the real world, which play out like some kind of Kantian thought experiment: Is it moral to donate to the USCCB if they use that money to explicitly fund the murder of unborn children?  Are you prepared to defend that proposition to Christ on Judgment Day?
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#57
We should remember the reason for tithing in the first place, namely, a priest requires material support to conduct his ministry. "The workman is worthy of his hire." The issue isn't withholding material support. We're just redirecting it to worthy causes, namely, traditional parishes and traditional priests.
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#58
(11-13-2019, 12:49 AM)piscis Wrote: We should remember the reason for tithing in the first place, namely, a priest requires material support to conduct his ministry. "The workman is worthy of his hire." The issue isn't withholding material support. We're just redirecting it to worthy causes, namely, traditional parishes and traditional priests.

Yes this is putting it better/more succinctly than I did.  Although I believe yablabo mentioned in another post that she is anti-trad or something along those lines, so this probably isn't going to matter to her.
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#59
The Precept, according to the Catechism is,

Quote:2043 The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his abilities.

It is footnoted to the Code of Canon Law,

Quote:Can. 222 §1. The Christian faithful are obliged to assist with the needs of the Church so that the Church has what is necessary for divine worship, for the works of the apostolate and of charity, and for the decent support of ministers.

Absolutely nothing about giving to the national conference of Bishops, any programs, or anything specific. Just giving to the needs of the Church. I'm sure that the seminaries of both the FSSP and SSPX need all the help they can get, and they are definitely needed by the Church!.
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#60
(11-13-2019, 12:52 AM)Imperator Caesar Trump Wrote:
(11-13-2019, 12:49 AM)piscis Wrote: We should remember the reason for tithing in the first place, namely, a priest requires material support to conduct his ministry. "The workman is worthy of his hire." The issue isn't withholding material support. We're just redirecting it to worthy causes, namely, traditional parishes and traditional priests.

Yes this is putting it better/more succinctly than I did.  Although I believe yablabo mentioned in another post that she is anti-trad or something along those lines, so this probably isn't going to matter to her.

I did not mention anywhere that I am anti-tradition.  I posted that I am not a trad myself and that my closest association with trads is in this forum.

I am not telling you that you have to give money to the USCCB. 

What I am saying is that a tithe is not a donation or gift, it is a debt everyone is bound to pay within their means for the material support of the Church.  You can't control if any priest or bishop puts some portion of this money he receives into a further payment to the USCCB, and it is not your responsibility to police things as such.  I am further saying that you cannot tell people that they cannot tithe at a Missa Paulina parish or diocese without committing sin.  Lay persons are not culpable for the way a bishop or priest spends his own money.

If you can answer to His Divine Majesty each time you present yourself at the sacred species for the way you provide for the material support of the Church, then that is all that is necessary viz. the precept.
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