Cardinal Müller warns ‘hundreds of thousands’ will leave Church over Pachamamas
#1
Returning to the subject, Müller noted that the prophets of the Old Testament had behaved even more forcefully against idols, as had St. Boniface, apostle to the Germans, when he felled an oak sacred to the god Thor and made a Christian chapel out of it. He suggested that if the apostles had belonged to this “age of self-secularization” in the Church, they would have condemned Christ Himself for property damage and battery when he cleansed the Temple of the moneychangers.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cardin...a-idolatry

                                 Like some other priests and bishops of late, I think it's really sinking in for Cardinal Muller that one day, as an ordained servant of God, he'll have to render an account of what he did with what he was entrusted with.
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#2
He's probably right, but there are also hundreds of thousands more who will stay and fight even harder against the heresy and apostasy in Rome!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#3
(11-26-2019, 11:42 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: He's probably right, but there are also hundreds of thousands more who will stay and fight even harder against the heresy and apostasy in Rome!

But how many Protestants who might have considered becoming Catholic say that they were right, that the Catholics worship idols, stay in their heresy, and be damned for failing to distinguish between what the Church teaches and what the Pope allows to go on?
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#4
No argument whatsoever there. Plus, I've already seen reports of how happy the evangelical heretics in Latin America are. 'See! We told you your Church worships idols'!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#5
(11-26-2019, 11:42 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: He's probably right, but there are also hundreds of thousands more who will stay and fight even harder against the heresy and apostasy in Rome!

This really seems like trying to have it both ways. I respect the opinions and the people behind those opinions here at fisheaters enormously but this dance around Bergoglio is killing me. If he's the Pope we owe him, AND WHAT HE TEACHES, our religious assent and filial obedience. That's not based on theorycrafting by saints and doctors of the Church imagining a hypothetical situation of a heretic on the Petrine Throne, it's fundamental Catholic Dogma. Bergoglio's mind and will are very well known, we don't have to tease meaning from isolated statements and he's not nearly as ambiguous as we try to make him. Don't go down the private theologian rabbit hole, ordering changes to the universal catechism, issuing encyclicals and apostolic exhortations are not private acts and equally significant, they are not sermons delivered to the faithful of his archdiocese. 

But "heresy and apostasy in Rome" is ambiguous. The Roman Church by its nature cannot be heretical and it cannot be apostate. If there is heresy and apostasy in Rome (and clearly there is) it is not coming from the Church in Rome. 

The unending nitpicking (and I may be wrong to characterize it as nitpicking) over canon law is easily the clearest example of sophistry I've ever seen. We're being required to accept two mutually exclusive, and thoroughly incompatible "truths" based on reasoning that is deceptive because it leads to definitive cognitive dissonance. On the one hand we are forbidden from declaring Jorge Bergoglio an apostate because no one may judge the Roman Pontiff and he must be the Roman Pontiff because everyone accepted him when he appeared on the loggia, and on the other hand we can't follow him because he's leading people to hell (not by his example, not by his private opinions but by his teaching that he clearly intends to give to the entire Church). Well... no. If you accept the former you don't get to say the latter. And if you say the latter the former had better damn well not be true. One of those hands offends and leads to sin, and needs to be chopped off.

This really is a let your yes be yes and your no be no situation. Instead we're stuck with our yes being no and our no being yes.
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#6
I don't hold back.  I just say, "I don't know.  I think he's evil."  I don't think this has to cause a lot of people to leave the Church.  Who cares what he says?  I don't.  If evangelicals try to attack the Church because of the crazy things Francis says and does, I just assure them that I probably think he's evil just as much as they do.  We don't need papal personality cults.  Francis is the blessing that has come to put that idea to death.  We need to learn the theology ourselves.  When Latin America was being converted from the 1500's onward, did those missionaries bring papal encyclicals, so that the Aztecs could take a break between human sacrifices for a cup of cocoa and a perusal of the writings of Alexander VI.  I highly doubt it.

Perhaps some will leave the Church.  I think of middle aged people from the US, who already think homosexual activity is OK will find validation for their sins in Francis.  Pray for them.  God has been known to punish people obstinate in their sins by letting them be encouraged to continue their evil.  Getting to this point isn't exactly a sign of humanity being in a good place with God.
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#7
(11-27-2019, 05:54 AM)boredoftheworld Wrote: Bergoglio's mind and will are very well known, we don't have to tease meaning from isolated statements and he's not nearly as ambiguous as we try to make him. Don't go down the private theologian rabbit hole, ordering changes to the universal catechism, issuing encyclicals and apostolic exhortations are not private acts and equally significant, they are not sermons delivered to the faithful of his archdiocese.

If he means what he says, he's a heretic, and what the Church has always taught contradicts him. The death penalty is not immoral because it 'violates human dignity'. God does not actively will all religions. Those who are committing adultery and continuing to commit adultery should not receive Communion. Having a large family is not 'breeding like rabbits' and not destroying the planet.

(11-27-2019, 05:54 AM)boredoftheworld Wrote: But "heresy and apostasy in Rome" is ambiguous. The Roman Church by its nature cannot be heretical and it cannot be apostate. If there is heresy and apostasy in Rome (and clearly there is) it is not coming from the Church in Rome.
You do realise that there's a city in Italy named Rome, and it's not the same thing as the Church. I suppose, if you want to be technical about it, the heresy and apostasy was committed in the Vatican, although I'm pretty sure the disposal of the idols took place in Italy. The Church cannot be heretical or apostate, but members of her clergy can, and they can even do it in Rome.
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#8
(11-27-2019, 12:43 PM)Paul Wrote: I suppose, if you want to be technical about it, the heresy and apostasy was committed in the Vatican, although I'm pretty sure the disposal of the idols took place in Italy. The Church cannot be heretical or apostate, but members of her clergy can, and they can even do it in Rome.
Well, the Church of Santa Maria in Transpontina, where some of the major idolatry took place, is in Rome, not the Vatican. Smile  Sadly, in checking that, I discovered that the Church is in the care of the Carmelite Order. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#9
(11-27-2019, 05:54 AM)boredoftheworld Wrote: This really seems like trying to have it both ways. I respect the opinions and the people behind those opinions here at fisheaters enormously but this dance around Bergoglio is killing me. If he's the Pope we owe him, AND WHAT HE TEACHES, our religious assent and filial obedience. That's not based on theorycrafting by saints and doctors of the Church imagining a hypothetical situation of a heretic on the Petrine Throne, it's fundamental Catholic Dogma. Bergoglio's mind and will are very well known, we don't have to tease meaning from isolated statements and he's not nearly as ambiguous as we try to make him. Don't go down the private theologian rabbit hole, ordering changes to the universal catechism, issuing encyclicals and apostolic exhortations are not private acts and equally significant, they are not sermons delivered to the faithful of his archdiocese. 

But "heresy and apostasy in Rome" is ambiguous. The Roman Church by its nature cannot be heretical and it cannot be apostate. If there is heresy and apostasy in Rome (and clearly there is) it is not coming from the Church in Rome. 

The unending nitpicking (and I may be wrong to characterize it as nitpicking) over canon law is easily the clearest example of sophistry I've ever seen. We're being required to accept two mutually exclusive, and thoroughly incompatible "truths" based on reasoning that is deceptive because it leads to definitive cognitive dissonance. On the one hand we are forbidden from declaring Jorge Bergoglio an apostate because no one may judge the Roman Pontiff and he must be the Roman Pontiff because everyone accepted him when he appeared on the loggia, and on the other hand we can't follow him because he's leading people to hell (not by his example, not by his private opinions but by his teaching that he clearly intends to give to the entire Church). Well... no. If you accept the former you don't get to say the latter. And if you say the latter the former had better damn well not be true. One of those hands offends and leads to sin, and needs to be chopped off.

This really is a let your yes be yes and your no be no situation. Instead we're stuck with our yes being no and our no being yes.

I think it makes sense to approach the situation with Francis exactly how the Church approached every previous pope who has taught heresy.  This is not a new situation.  How would you have reacted toward Liberius?  How did St. Athanasius?
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#10
I’m glad I know little about this Pachamamas stuff going on.
All I know is some good men threw some idols into the river.
I don’t feel I need to waste more time on it.
Instead, look inward; what can be mortified better today?
None of this Pachamamas stuff affects your practicing the faith.

Seriously folks, once you stop paying much attention to others, you’ll feel liberated,
Focus on yourself. Do you love God more today than yesterday? Is there any unforgiving tendency left in your heart? Have you gotten your anger and impatience under control?
This is what being Catholic is about.
Anyone can look at things and admit they’re bad. That doesn’t take much skill.
If we’re serious about growing in the Spirit we need to focus on the inner life.
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