Patriarch of Constantinople: Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union now inevitable?
#21
(11-29-2019, 09:53 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Catholic Traditionalist ecclesiology is very strange.  Most of you despise being in Communion with Francis and consider him an apostate, yet you also believe it's necessary for us to come into Communion with Francis and commemorate him in our Liturgies.  Think about it carefully.  You demand that we come into Communion and submit to the one that you yourselves believe to be an apostate and that you yourselves reject.  It's a bizarre notion.  Why do you believe its necessary to maintain Communion with unrepentant heretics and commemorate them in your Liturgies?  If you maintain Communion with heretics, what motivation will they ever have to repent of their heresy and return to the truth?  Again, bizarre and contradictory, un-Patristic, un-Traditional.  
  

Yup, but there is a very simple reason for this. I believe in the keys given to St Peter, Apostolic Succession and I believe in the words of Our Lord in Mark 4:37-40

I also have my doubts over the validity of Francis' election. ;)

God Bless You
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#22
Liberal elites have wanted this for a long time.  The EP has been a sham for centuries. Most more traditionalist Orthodox pay no heed to the EP or the politics of "world Orthodoxy", and most want nothing to do with any kind of union with Rome in any guise.  I suspect most Catholic trads are the same regarding the Orthodoxy.

Orthodoxy is about the Faith, not who a given bishop happens to be or his authority or lack thereof.  Personally I find immense freedom in Orthodoxy precisely because of its more decentralized ecclesiology. 

Laymen of both confessions shouldn't get too wrapped up in the politics of mostly faithless bishops.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#23
(11-30-2019, 10:19 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Laymen of both confessions shouldn't get too wrapped up in the politics of mostly faithless bishops.

If I were Orthodox I would agree, but not as a Catholic. Neverthelesss -

(11-30-2019, 09:59 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: I believe in the keys given to St Peter, Apostolic Succession and I believe in the words of Our Lord in Mark 4:37-40

God Bless You :)
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#24
(11-30-2019, 03:12 AM)CarmeliteKnight Wrote:
(11-29-2019, 09:53 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Catholic Traditionalist ecclesiology is very strange.  Most of you despise being in Communion with Francis and consider him an apostate, yet you also believe it's necessary for us to come into Communion with Francis and commemorate him in our Liturgies.  Think about it carefully.  You demand that we come into Communion and submit to the one that you yourselves believe to be an apostate and that you yourselves reject.  It's a bizarre notion.  Why do you believe its necessary to maintain Communion with unrepentant heretics and commemorate them in your Liturgies?  If you maintain Communion with heretics, what motivation will they ever have to repent of their heresy and return to the truth?  Again, bizarre and contradictory, un-Patristic, un-Traditional.  
  
Look here bud, we don't expect you to like the captain of the ship, we just want you to be in the ship with us. This way when the flood water comes you will know Salvation. For there is no salvation outside of the church. Captains come and go but the ship will always be there. 

As for the current Captain, Pope Francis,  his actions will be judged by the High Admiral, Jesus Christ, just like everyone else. The next Captain after Francis maybe good or bad, but the barque of St. Peter will prevail. 

So you can stay in your Confederacy of dinghies, but you're going to have a bad time.

The papacy voluntarily jumped the ship holding his own dinghy a millennia ago when he declared himself an absolute monarch over the Church.  The Apostolic canons state that whoever holds the primacy among bishops should do absolutely nothing without the full consent of all his brother bishops.  First the Pope ignored the Apostolic canons and unilaterally changed the Creed that had already been permanently established by the Councils and he did it without a Council and without the consent of the other Patriarchates.  The schism was sealed with the later developments regarding Papal Supremacy, Universal Jurisdiction, and eventually Infallibility.  The papacy violated the Canons, the Fathers, and the Councils and went his own way.     


We want you in the ship with us as well.  When you finally wake up to the fact that the papacy has been an innovator and a disseminator of novelties for a millennia, and has been unilaterally messing and fiddling around with Tradition and doctrine for many centuries, you will not be far off from reclaiming your true Roman Orthodox Catholic heritage and birthright.
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#25
(11-30-2019, 09:46 AM)josh987654321 Wrote: Sr Lucia from Fatima said that Russia would be converted through the Orthodox Church and that we would be reunited, the heresies of your Orthodox brothers in joining with Francis may indeed push you into the same boat with us, for we both know there is something seriously wrong with Francis.
Francis may push you into the same boat with us.  We even have an Orthodox Western Rite already waiting for you.  ;)
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#26
(11-27-2019, 06:21 AM)CarmeliteKnight Wrote: I'm going to call it.

When Pat Bart inevitably comes home to Rome and brings some of the Eastern churchs with him, the Patriarch of Moscow will declare himself the new Ecumenical Patriarch just to continue to spite Constantinople and Rome. I really hope the Greek Church in my area comes home. They have gigantic wall sized icons of our LORD and His mother that alot of my fellow parishioners would absolutely love to see.
Honestly, Patriarch Kirill is more likely to come over than Patriarch Bartholomew.
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#27
(11-30-2019, 03:58 PM)newenglandsun Wrote:
(11-27-2019, 06:21 AM)CarmeliteKnight Wrote: I'm going to call it.

When Pat Bart inevitably comes home to Rome and brings some of the Eastern churchs with him, the Patriarch of Moscow will declare himself the new Ecumenical Patriarch just to continue to spite Constantinople and Rome. I really hope the Greek Church in my area comes home. They have gigantic wall sized icons of our LORD and His mother that alot of my fellow parishioners would absolutely love to see.
Honestly, Patriarch Kirill is more likely to come over than Patriarch Bartholomew.
I'm genuinely curious what makes you think that?  I confess I'm not that knowledgeable about Patriarch Kirill only that I hear he's western educated and less of an Orthodox traditionalist than some would like to think. 

Ultimately I don't think any genuine trad Catholic or trad Orthodox would go for reunion unless certain doctrinal/ dogmatic issues were definitely resolved.Personally after studying the various doctrinal/ dogmatic issues for years I don't think many of them are simply an issue of semantics, they are drastically different and irreconcilable.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#28
(11-30-2019, 11:28 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: We want you in the ship with us as well.  When you finally wake up to the fact that the papacy has been an innovator and a disseminator of novelties for a millennia, and has been unilaterally messing and fiddling around with Tradition and doctrine for many centuries, you will not be far off from reclaiming your true Roman Orthodox Catholic heritage and birthright.[/size]

There are three reasons I cannot accept that premise, the first is that not even the Patriarch claims to be a validly elected Pope and the other to be an imposter, hence secondly for the same reason I reject Sedevacantism I reject the Orthodox view, I cannot believe that Christ has abandoned His bride the Church for Milennia, He gave St Peter the keys, said he was the rock upon which He would build the Church and said the gates of Hell would never prevail.

And thirdly, I believe in the Saints such as St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, St Faustina, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Fatima etc etc. There are many such miracles in the Catholic Church after the schism between east and west clearly indicating that Christ has not abandoned His Church.

I also have no idea why the Filioque "Proceeds from the father and the son" is such a stumbling block, it makes total sense to me.

God Bless You
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#29
Personally, I think this is great news.  I have thought for many years now, if Orthodoxy returns to Catholicism, it would not be a corporate reunion but piecemeal.  I imagine those churches who recognize the OCU would come over mostly intact, and individual dioceses of other churches might.

Whether or not Francis and Barthilomew are heretics or apostates seem irrelevant to me.  If the Christians are reunited in one Church, to me that is a good thing - far greater than whatever wromg reason may have been its catalyst.

Also, Josh, you may have to give up your hang up on married clergy. It's a tradition that isn't going anywhere, and doesn't invalidate anything, so I'm afraid a refusal to reunite over it would be based more on vanity than orthodoxy.
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#30
(11-30-2019, 07:37 PM)Melkite Wrote: Whether or not Francis and Barthilomew are heretics or apostates seem irrelevant to me. If the Christians are reunited in one Church, to me that is a good thing - far greater than whatever wrong reason may have been its catalyst.

Only prophecy speaks of a false Church emerging.

Catechism of the Catholic Church Wrote:675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

(11-30-2019, 07:37 PM)Melkite Wrote: Also, Josh, you may have to give up your hang up on married clergy.


That's fine, anything done under Francis will not last. ;)

We recently also apparently had to give up our hang up on idolatry with the whole Pachamama incident... but what are ya gonna do? lol

'Jesus, I Trust in You'

God Bless You
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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