Patriarch of Constantinople: Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union now inevitable?
#51
(01-21-2020, 08:53 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(01-21-2020, 10:21 AM)Augustinian Wrote: Good. Only a united Christendom can fight modernity. It makes no sense to have a schism over matters of historical events when we believe the same things.

Clinging to some event that happened 7-800 years ago is against forgiveness and reeks of pride.

If EO unites with a Francis Papacy, I'm gonna laugh at all those EO refugees who fled to escape Bergoligio.  :D

I will also laugh at Jay Dyer as he will be forced to leave the EO for Kaballahism, or maybe going back to sedevacantism.

I could definitely see some Divine irony here if schismatics are pushed back in company with the man who drove them away. Thank God the Church is more than Her Pontiff.

I think Dyer's ROCOR, so his sect wouldn't be included in such a union since it's with the Greek church. Unless EO is as united as they say and the whole myriad of churches come with.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8

[Image: 180px-SA_160-Jeremia_op_de_puinhopen_van_Jeruzalem.jpg]
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#52
(01-21-2020, 09:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Unless EO is as united as they say and the whole myriad of churches come with.

As the French would say, C'est pour rire! Or in the vernacular, ROTFLMAO!!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#53
(01-21-2020, 10:21 AM)Augustinian Wrote: Good. Only a united Christendom can fight modernity. It makes no sense to have a schism over matters of historical events when we believe the same things.

Clinging to some event that happened 7-800 years ago is against forgiveness and reeks of pride.

You believe the same things as Francis and his Vatican?  

Again you don't see the irony of your own claim to be part of a "united" Christendom, while you yourselves are in rebellion against the pope and the vast majority of your hierarchy whom you deem to be heretics.  Or are you just "clinging" to things that don't matter?  How is it that we reek of pride and you don't? Your position is not all that different from ours, except that you insist on retaining a false external union with heretics.
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#54
I’ll say it again.   Modernist, globalist, environmentalist heretics from the East set to unite with modernist, globalist, environmentalist heretics from the West.  And Trad Catholics are celebrating this false union as if it matters?  

Speaking of irony.  You Trads don’t even share the same faith with Francis and his dancing bishops, nor do you submit to them, yet you demand that the Orthodox come over and submit to them.  Or are we supposed to come and submit to you?  To the SSPX?  

Your “union” with Francis and the Vatican is a false union based on nothing but legalisms.  You pay lip service to the modernists as if that suffices to make you all “one” with them.  No shared faith, morals, dogma, worship.  Trad Catholics have almost nothing in common with modernist Rome and are basically operating as their own independent church within a church, in communion with Francis and the Vatican “in name only”, which means nothing.  From what I gather, you think obedience to Tradition trumps Papacy, which makes your own Trad ecclesiology much closer to Orthodoxy than to top-down papal monarchy, so why not just go all the way and come over into union with the rest of the ancient Catholic Church and become the real Western Orthodox Catholics?  ;)
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#55
(01-22-2020, 08:52 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(01-21-2020, 10:21 AM)Augustinian Wrote: Good. Only a united Christendom can fight modernity. It makes no sense to have a schism over matters of historical events when we believe the same things.

Clinging to some event that happened 7-800 years ago is against forgiveness and reeks of pride.

You believe the same things as Francis and his Vatican?  

Again you don't see the irony of your own claim to be part of a "united" Christendom, while you yourselves are in rebellion against the pope and the vast majority of your hierarchy whom you deem to be heretics.  Or are you just "clinging" to things that don't matter?  How is it that we reek of pride and you don't? Your position is not all that different from ours, except that you insist on retaining a false external union with heretics.
Here's the thing: I can accept the Pope's authority without accepting every questionable thing that comes out of his mouth. It's like having a President that you didn't vote for and don't agree with, but out of piety for the office still recognize his authority. And where exactly did I declare Francis and his cohorts "heretics"? I don't have the authority to declare anyone a heretic, and neither do you. I can identify what appear to be heretical acts and statements, but since I can't read the hearts of these men, how can I objectively declare them heretics?

In your view, you've outright dismissed 25 million Orthodox Christians as heretics by association, which you yourself know is something you cannot prove. Just because I choose to adhere to the Traditions of the Church does not mean I hold the view that 95% of the Catholic Church are heretics.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8

[Image: 180px-SA_160-Jeremia_op_de_puinhopen_van_Jeruzalem.jpg]
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#56
(01-22-2020, 08:53 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: And Trad Catholics are celebrating this false union as if it matters?

I'm not.

(01-22-2020, 08:53 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Speaking of irony.  You Trads don’t even share the same faith with Francis and his dancing bishops, nor do you submit to them, yet you demand that the Orthodox come over and submit to them.  Or are we supposed to come and submit to you?  To the SSPX?

I don't believe Francis was validly elected and I pray for Pope Benedict XVI and the restoration of the Church. In any case, I believe in Papal succession and that no matter how bad it gets Our Lord will find a way to restore the Church. 'Jesus, I Trust In You'

(01-22-2020, 08:53 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Your “union” with Francis and the Vatican is a false union based on nothing but legalisms.
 

Your right there is a schism already in the Catholic Church, nevertheless, it's not legalism to follow Papal Succession, we just have to be patient. I believe God will restore His Church, and the only means of doing so is to endure what we currently are enduring, as it's the only way to separate the wheat and chaff that has grown inside her for many years.

(01-22-2020, 08:53 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: You pay lip service to the modernists as if that suffices to make you all “one” with them.
 

I don't. I say 'Pope' and just leave out the name until the time comes.

(01-22-2020, 08:53 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: in communion with Francis and the Vatican “in name only”, which means nothing.

If he was validly elected, nevertheless, it's not in vain for I believe the Church will be restored and Papal Succession will continue.

God Bless You
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#57
(01-22-2020, 09:52 AM)Augustinian Wrote: And where exactly did I declare Francis and his cohorts "heretics"?

I'll gladly say it, they're heretics, which means either the gates of hell have prevailed or Bergoglio was invalidly elected and not the true Pope. In any case time will tell and I know the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church will be restored. 'Jesus, I Trust In You'

God Bless You
Jesus to St Faustina:

"For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart." (Diary, 1485)

"Remember My Passion, and if you do not believe My words, at least believe My wounds." (Diary, 379)

"It is in My Passion that you must seek light and strength." (Diary, 654)
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#58

Josh, you're doing it again! Will you please stop?!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#59
(01-21-2020, 09:13 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-21-2020, 08:53 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(01-21-2020, 10:21 AM)Augustinian Wrote: Good. Only a united Christendom can fight modernity. It makes no sense to have a schism over matters of historical events when we believe the same things.

Clinging to some event that happened 7-800 years ago is against forgiveness and reeks of pride.

If EO unites with a Francis Papacy, I'm gonna laugh at all those EO refugees who fled to escape Bergoligio.  :D

I will also laugh at Jay Dyer as he will be forced to leave the EO for Kaballahism, or maybe going back to sedevacantism.

I could definitely see some Divine irony here if schismatics are pushed back in company with the man who drove them away. Thank God the Church is more than Her Pontiff.

I think Dyer's ROCOR, so his sect wouldn't be included in such a union since it's with the Greek church. Unless EO is as united as they say and the whole myriad of churches come with.
Orthodoxy isn't tied to any particular bishop or contingent on being in communion with one.  RC's tend to read their ecclesiology into Orthodoxy even though it's very different.  

ROCOR is already compromised according to some due to their reunion with the MP, a church set up by Stalin that did a lot to persecute Christians during Soviet times, to say nothing of the sketchy era of Peter I, Catherine I and Nikon. As Dr. MRJ has said many times, Russian Orthodox have yet to seriously look at the history of the MP back to the 18th century.  The MP still looks at Peter and Catherine as "right believing monarchs" even though history says otherwise and both did A LOT to hurt Orthodoxy and Russian culture. 

For Old Rite guys like me, even the mainstream Russian Church has fallen in many ways since the time of Nikon and the illegitimate non Orthodox psuedo tsar Peter I who tortured and killed most the bishops in Russia and set up his own cronies in places of power in the 18th century.  See above. 

That being said,  grace is NOT necessarily tied to any one bishop or any one particular national church or "jurisdiction". There were and are good and holy men in all the various Orthodox churches out there, as there have been for centuries. 

My ecclesiology is more Old Believer and Slavophile, based on "Sobornost". God knows who belongs to Him.  It's the content of the Faith that counts.  If you believe and pray in an Orthodox manner than you recieve grace, since grace is always present and part of the uncreated energies of God, it's not only present at the hands of "correct" bishops in "correct" jurisdictions.  

Regarding the EP, I would hope those under him would reject completely any reunion with Rome simply because we Orthodox and Roman Catholics fo NOT share the same faith.  We are NOT the same in terms of theology, ecclesiology or praxis. If you are honest and spend even a small amount of time reading and reflecting on things there's no way you could believe we share the same faith.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#60
(01-25-2020, 06:36 AM)formerbuddhist Wrote: Orthodoxy isn't tied to any particular bishop or contingent on being in communion with one.  RC's tend to read their ecclesiology into Orthodoxy even though it's very different.  

ROCOR is already compromised according to some due to their reunion with the MP, a church set up by Stalin that did a lot to persecute Christians during Soviet times, to say nothing of the sketchy era of Peter I, Catherine I and Nikon. As Dr. MRJ has said many times, Russian Orthodox have yet to seriously look at the history of the MP back to the 18th century.  The MP still looks at Peter and Catherine as "right believing monarchs" even though history says otherwise and both did A LOT to hurt Orthodoxy and Russian culture. 

For Old Rite guys like me, even the mainstream Russian Church has fallen in many ways since the time of Nikon and the illegitimate non Orthodox psuedo tsar Peter I who tortured and killed most the bishops in Russia and set up his own cronies in places of power in the 18th century.  See above. 

That being said,  grace is NOT necessarily tied to any one bishop or any one particular national church or "jurisdiction". There were and are good and holy men in all the various Orthodox churches out there, as there have been for centuries. 

My ecclesiology is more Old Believer and Slavophile, based on "Sobornost". God knows who belongs to Him.  It's the content of the Faith that counts.  If you believe and pray in an Orthodox manner than you recieve grace, since grace is always present and part of the uncreated energies of God, it's not only present at the hands of "correct" bishops in "correct" jurisdictions.  

Regarding the EP, I would hope those under him would reject completely any reunion with Rome simply because we Orthodox and Roman Catholics fo NOT share the same faith.  We are NOT the same in terms of theology, ecclesiology or praxis. If you are honest and spend even a small amount of time reading and reflecting on things there's no way you could believe we share the same faith.

It is very clear to me that we are not the same in ecclesiology simply because, based upon the information you've just provided, the EO seem to determine their own ecclesiology. You say ROCOR is compromised, based on PorphyriosK's remarks the EP is apparently some sort of heretic (along with the entire Greek orthodox church), and you personally adhere to some sort of Slavic orthodoxy based on the old calendar, yes?

So, as you say, God simply knows who is His. I don't disagree with this, only God ultimately knows who will be saved and who will be damned. It sounds to me like a sort of cafeteria Orthodoxy where you fit together whatever you deem to be truth, rather than adhering to a single cohesive tradition?

I ask these questions because I'm trying to get to the truth of the matter here. And each and every time I try to comprehend just what EO is, I'm given one person's interpretation rather than a coherent idea of how this is anything more than a coalition of nationalized churches. And then there's things like rebellion against the papacy or the filioque or essence/energies theology which are all thrown in to mystify rather than explain just why anyone should be Orthodox. I've spent more time than I should looking into Orthodoxy, even to the detriment of my own faith, and have still come away with no coherent image of just what you all believe.

Yet I can look at the Catholic Church, see a definitive structure, see a long, globe-spanning evangelical mission, a systematized magisterium with clear teachings on what to believe, a sound theology; and yet somehow that is not the true Church. And based on what you are saying, throwing "Sobornost" into the works, I am apparently just supposed to follow some sort of sola scriptura-sola patres, cafeteria tradition. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

Sure, we can start harping on Vatican II; but honestly, what resulted from that council was a chaotic, synodal ecclesiology akin to what our brothers in Orthodoxy have had for a millennium.

God love you for your response, but I just do not see how I am lying to myself when all I see everytime I look into Orthodoxy is really just heterodoxy.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8

[Image: 180px-SA_160-Jeremia_op_de_puinhopen_van_Jeruzalem.jpg]
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