Sacramental vs Non-Sacramental Europe
#21
On the other hand, there's the lovely, crime-ridden home to head-chopping drug cartels "Catholic" Mexico. A few headlines:

Mexico's Crime Rates

Mexico’s crime rate is so bad that scientists are avoiding observatories

CRIME IN MEXICO: MURDER RATE REACHES RECORD HIGH AND NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT
T h e   D u d e t t e   A b i d e s
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#22
(12-13-2019, 02:25 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: On the other hand, there's the lovely, crime-ridden home to head-chopping drug cartels "Catholic" Mexico. A few headlines:

Mexico's Crime Rates

Mexico’s crime rate is so bad that scientists are avoiding observatories

CRIME IN MEXICO: MURDER RATE REACHES RECORD HIGH AND NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT


What comes to mind here is that this is a land that had human sacrifice less than 500 years ago.

By contrast,  the Christic power of the Sacraments started to transform Europe almost 2000 years ago.

PLUS the Sacraments were entering into a higher, more elevated civilisation. The Greco-Latin civilisation that produced Plato, Aristotle etc.

Of course, the Romans crucified people and threw them to the lions, but even these gory public execution rituals are different from what I understand about the Aztecs and human sacrifice.

Not politically correct I know, but thank God Vox you provide such a refuge from Political Correctness!
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#23
(12-14-2019, 04:38 PM)Roger Buck Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 02:25 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: On the other hand, there's the lovely, crime-ridden home to head-chopping drug cartels "Catholic" Mexico. A few headlines:

Mexico's Crime Rates

Mexico’s crime rate is so bad that scientists are avoiding observatories

CRIME IN MEXICO: MURDER RATE REACHES RECORD HIGH AND NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT


What comes to mind here is that this is a land that had human sacrifice less than 500 years ago.

By contrast,  the Christic power of the Sacraments started to transform Europe almost 2000 years ago.

PLUS the Sacraments were entering into a higher, more elevated civilisation. The Greco-Latin civilisation that produced Plato, Aristotle etc.

Of course, the Romans crucified people and threw them to the lions, but even these gory public execution rituals are different from what I understand about the Aztecs and human sacrifice.

Not politically correct I know, but thank God Vox you provide such a refuge from Political Correctness!

In fact, Roger, I was going to comment that Mexico actually strengthens your point. It only had the full exposure to the Sacraments for about 300 years from the Conquest until the Freemasonic revolutions when the Church started being persecuted.


And the northern European countries where heresy was/is strongest had the shortest exposure to the Sacraments.
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#24
(12-14-2019, 04:50 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: In fact, Roger, I was going to comment that Mexico actually strengthens your point. It only had the full exposure to the Sacraments for about 300 years from the Conquest until the Freemasonic revolutions when the Church started being persecuted.[/size]

And the northern European countries where heresy was/is strongest had the shortest exposure to the Sacraments.


Thanks, again, Jovan! I am grateful for this, as I don't think many folk sufficiently appreciate the power of the Sacraments to transform a nation.

But my own experience of living in Catholic vs non-Catholic countries, plus regularly crossing back and forth over many different European borders, observing differences - as well as statistics like these - makes me powerfully convinced of this.
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#25
(12-13-2019, 02:25 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote: On the other hand, there's the lovely, crime-ridden home to head-chopping drug cartels "Catholic" Mexico. A few headlines:

Mexico's Crime Rates

Mexico’s crime rate is so bad that scientists are avoiding observatories

CRIME IN MEXICO: MURDER RATE REACHES RECORD HIGH AND NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT
I never understand why people want to vacation there during all of this. Theres a huge risk of being kidnapped by some cartel members, not to mention just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

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"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#26
(12-16-2019, 12:12 PM)Augustinian Wrote: I never understand why people want to vacation there during all of this. Theres a huge risk of being kidnapped by some cartel members, not to mention just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Don't you know it's racist to point that out? If you avoid places because of high crime rates among people that aren't white, you're letting the terrorists racists win.
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#27
(12-08-2019, 10:47 AM)Roger Buc Wrote: No this is far more about the Sacraments in Catholic and Orthodox countries ...
Yes, I noted that in my reply above #3. How does that Great Schism and the cultural divergence factor into these stats, then?
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#28
The level of sheer creative brutality and horror in Mexico is on a whole other level to almost any other place I can think of. Some of Latin America had stuff like cannibalism and human sacrifice for centuries.  If I recall correctly there were some conquistadors writing about coming across tribes that would engage in gory cannibalism and butchery of their enemies.  Its in their ancestral and cultural memory to revert to Aztec barbarity without Christ. 

One thing I often think about regarding a lack of sacraments is the Jews. Their rejection of Christ brought out the evil Talmud which actually claims they are ontologically higher beings than gentiles which they've used to justify their usury, promotion of pornography and degeneracy for centuries in every nation they've settled. 

Just look at how they engaged in the slave trade in Slav lands, or how they were instrumental in the Bolshevik revolution and the Soviet experiment which killed more people than the Nazis. Politically correct or not the Bolshevik revolution was almost an entirely Jewish operation.  They are driven by an abject hatred of Christ and his people.  Of course not every individual person of Jewish heritage is involved with this or even knows what's in the Talmud or their history, but collectively as a people they've been pretty heinous throughout history after their rejection of Christ.

I don't see much difference between Orthodox and Catholic nations. Man's sinful nature manifests in both, although collectively I think the Western nations have drifted way farther from the ideal than many in the East. Even with Jewish Soviet Communism and the destruction wrought by Peter I Russia at least on the surface is far, far more religious than any country in the West today.  

 Personally I think whether East or West there was never meant to be a strict separation between Church life and daily life.  If we truly believe in Christ than it MUST be both a public and private affair that effects everything, including the law of the land.  Sadly whether Catholic or Orthodox those of us who take this very traditional view are a minority.  We were never meant to be atomized individuals living a purely private faith,  the faith was meant to be collective informing everything.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#29
(12-18-2019, 10:31 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote:  Personally I think whether East or West there was never meant to be a strict separation between Church life and daily life.  If we truly believe in Christ than it MUST be both a public and private affair that effects everything, including the law of the land.  Sadly whether Catholic or Orthodox those of us who take this very traditional view are a minority.  We were never meant to be atomized individuals living a purely private faith,  the faith was meant to be collective informing everything.

A+ on your Jew-wise sentiments, there needs to be a distinction between religious and ethnic Jews. Judaism is evil, but not all Jews are evil.

As for the separation of Church life and daily life, that is purely a result of Protestantism and post-Enlightenment thought. This idea that I can pull my Catholicism out of the closet on Sundays and put it away to live as a heathen the rest of the week comes from the libertine spirit of the modern age. My wife has expressed concerns about my "obsession" with my religion at times, and I've had to tell her that being Catholic is not just something I take out once a week, its a way of life too, and I don't even do it as zealously as other Catholics in my own parish. It wasn't until the onset of the separation of Church and state did we see it trickle down into individual family life. Now people see politics and religion as something they need to secularize in their social lives to avoid controversy, when Christ Himself said that He came not to bring peace but a sword, turning us against even our own loved ones.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#30
(12-19-2019, 12:19 AM)Augustinian Wrote:
(12-18-2019, 10:31 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote:  Personally I think whether East or West there was never meant to be a strict separation between Church life and daily life.  If we truly believe in Christ than it MUST be both a public and private affair that effects everything, including the law of the land.  Sadly whether Catholic or Orthodox those of us who take this very traditional view are a minority.  We were never meant to be atomized individuals living a purely private faith,  the faith was meant to be collective informing everything.

A+ on your Jew-wise sentiments, there needs to be a distinction between religious and ethnic Jews. Judaism is evil, but not all Jews are evil.

As for the separation of Church life and daily life, that is purely a result of Protestantism and post-Enlightenment thought. This idea that I can pull my Catholicism out of the closet on Sundays and put it away to live as a heathen the rest of the week comes from the libertine spirit of the modern age. My wife has expressed concerns about my "obsession" with my religion at times, and I've had to tell her that being Catholic is not just something I take out once a week, its a way of life too, and I don't even do it as zealously as other Catholics in my own parish. It wasn't until the onset of the separation of Church and state did we see it trickle down into individual family life. Now people see politics and religion as something they need to secularize in their social lives to avoid controversy, when Christ Himself said that He came not to bring peace but a sword, turning us against even our own loved ones.
Call me crazy but the BEST book on this all encompassing worldview from a Catholic perspective is Dr. John Rao's Black Legends.  He was very clear in that book and in many of his talks (from the old Keep The Faith site were instrumental in helping me finally see that there cannot be a disconnect between inner and outer, sacred and secular. Christ was both true God and true Man, a Divine Person with two wills and two natures in a mysterious union. Our whole society has to be modeled on proper Christology. That was a revolutionary idea for me at the time but as the years go by I see it as extremely important. Whether it's the prologue of St. John or Colossians its clear that Christ is all in all and our lives- - public and private- - social and individual- - must model Him. With that being said you living this out in your own life is a good and noble thing.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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