Life After Death Experience – My Visit to Heaven, Hell & Purgatory
#31
(12-21-2019, 07:26 PM)Fionnchu Wrote: Easy to shrug off for many now, but this left lasting impacts on my soul that persist. How do you suggest that children be taught such a Marian message of likely damnation for so many if the Fatima and related apparitions are to be believed as literally true?

I think you understimate the putrid state of the world. Most people aren't like you, or me, or the woman who had this experience. Most people will talk about the wonders of abortion and how glad they are that we have finally removved God from our lives to finally be enlightened by sodomy and feminism. It shouldn't surprise you that even with God's mercy a large number of people (doesn't have to be a %) will end up in Hell.

I don't see where is this "starking contradiction". Even with purgatory, even with God's mercy, many people will just spit on God. And things will only get worse.
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#32
Quote:If eating meat on a Friday is a mortal sin or looking at a woman with lust, to say nothing of worse sins like usury (which is part and parcel of the financial system,  and, by the way, promoted by the RCC since the renaissance)  than it stands to reason most-- including Catholics- - are damned.  Any way you slice it it doesn't look good.

Well, if you consider that Esau lost his birthright for a bowl of stew, and Moses was banned from the promised land because he tapped the rock too many times, it's true that God demands obedience and we can throw it away quite cheaply.

Yet He is always saving us one way or another.  He gives us as many chances as necessary.

For those outside the faith or fallen away, they have our prayers and most importantly, the sacrifice of the Mass all around the world to provide them with grace.

In both the experience of the lady in this video and the Gloria Polo NDE,  the intercessory prayers of others saved souls from the fires of Hell.  For Gloria Polo, it was a stranger in another town who read about her getting hit by lightning in the newspaper, whom she later met.  The lightning hit her copper IUD and she was pulled back from the depths of darkness by the Archangel Michael.

Like I said earlier, if you watch the video Zedta posted, it's clear that lady was saying that 99% of those that go to Heaven will have to pass through Purgatory.  For some, it's a quick ascent and for others, it takes a long time.

Purgatory is a huge mercy and I'd rather be cleaned off of all my debt before I enter before the throne.

I'm grateful for its existence and I trust the Lord will require more of those who were given more and less of those who weren't.


Quote:Another issue I've come across is the role of Confession. I have heard some say that even if we confess, we still go to purgatory for those sins. Christ tells us "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven" (Matthew 18:18-19). This is where the issue of indulgences comes in. It is hard to preach "infinite loving mercy" then tell a penitent who receives absolution that they still have to suffer for what they did. Is the sin loosed or not? Our Lord seems to say its over once the priest in persona Christi asks for it to be....

If a guy playing ball with his kid in the front yard carelessly breaks your window it's not enough just to say, "Sorry."  He should pay to get it fixed.

And if a guy rapes and murders your daughter, it's not enough just to say, "Sorry."  A much greater recompense will be due and even then to call it justice is well...  :(

So sorry is the just beginning of paying our debt and the rest is a matter of justice.

If Jesus didn't open the gates through His sacrifice nothing would do the job.  Only now, because of His sacrifice, we can unite ours to His.

Yet, we wouldn't want Him to be our whipping boy.  True repentance means we also want to make up for what we did in some way.




Quote:Fionnchu

In first grade, 1967-68, at parochial school we assembled to watch the "cold war classic" 1952 film on
 "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima." At this time, we still had "duck + cover" every last Friday of the month when the Civil Defense alarm went off at 10 AM, and expectations that we'd die in a nuclear blast were not fantasy; recall the bracelets marketed to U.S. schoolchildren with one's religion stamped on it in case of death....and the dramatic perils of the movie imprinted themselves indelibly on my mind.

This combined message of impending doom terrified me. I could not sleep: the lights on the wall one sees in a darkened bedroom move (as from passing reflections from cars) seemed demonic, my luminous rosary haunted me, as I'd be damned...

How do you suggest that children be taught such a Marian message of likely damnation for so many if the Fatima and related apparitions are to be believed as literally true?

I'm sorry you went through that. :(

Perhaps the concept that St. Therese grasped so fully as a child would have helped.  At least that's what I relied on to counter our afternoons watching The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima while we ate fresh chocolate chip cookies and took a "rain day"  (homeschooling term for hanging out in your jammies :P).

By the time they watched it they had many years of hearing about the love of Jesus and this story of St. Therese.  (Sorry, I don't know how to make the French accents on my keyboard :P)

When Therese was just a little tyke she would look in the sky and see a "T" in the stars and say, "Look, Daddy, my name is written in Heaven!"  She asked her Dad to hold her hand so she could walk and stare at the sky.  As an adult, when she thought she might be dying, she wasn't scared, she was excited.

So along those lines, I tried to explain frequently that this isn't our home.  Our real home is Heaven.  We are just visiting here.  Nothing here lasts.  See the bananas...they don't last do they?  See our new car has a scratch?  Nothing here lasts.  We have a beautiful Heavenly home waiting for us which Jesus has prepared for us and Mary is waiting with open arms.

Death isn't scary.  Death is just a time when we get to go home.  We should be ready to die every day and we should think about it every day.

We want everyone to go there and be with us, don't we?   

So sure, Hell is real and it's very sad souls are going there but Heaven is just as real and that's our true home and we will focus on that and on getting ourselves and everyone else there too.  

Our consciences need both the fear of the Lord and a deep knowledge of His love.  One or the other is insufficient and we can only appreciate His mercy as much as we appreciate His justice.

In the long run, kids can handle the knowledge of both even if it's frightening at first as I'm sure it was for the Fatima children.  

Most of all, that seed planted in your heart, Fionnchu, which was forgotten for a while made an indelible mark which surfaced again in your adult life and you just knew it was true and that you must repent.  It's hard to give up adult sins without that kind of urgency.

We begin with the dread of the loss of Heaven and pains of Hell, but grow to mature in motivation because He is deserving of all our love.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  No wonder there is so little wisdom to be found.
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#33
(12-30-2019, 05:10 AM)Daniel-AH Wrote:
(12-21-2019, 07:26 PM)Fionnchu Wrote: Easy to shrug off for many now, but this left lasting impacts on my soul that persist. How do you suggest that children be taught such a Marian message of likely damnation for so many if the Fatima and related apparitions are to be believed as literally true?

I think you understimate the putrid state of the world. Most people aren't like you, or me, or the woman who had this experience. Most people will talk about the wonders of abortion and how glad they are that we have finally removved God from our lives to finally be enlightened by sodomy and feminism.
I am not dismissing Fatima, but asking how to convey its frightening warnings to impressionable children just entering "the age of reason" as opposed to their fantasy world. I think SHL got it right--cookies and jammies happily creates a "safe space" atmosphere, and Therese's own reaction as a child is heartwarming. Personally I take inspiration that she later felt desolation and aridity in her prayer, and wrote about it...

As a relevant aside, not quite a "red pill" moment as I'd already been drifting farther from center-left a few years ago, but one phrase that soured me on the current predicament we're in is the campaign to "#shout your abortion." Even some of my most lefty pals confided in me that they were personally against abortion themselves, even if they granted, as all my family and friends concur, legalization as a necessary evil. That may not be the position "we" favor here, but I mention it as telling, for amidst "my blue-state" majorities who are "pro-choice," at least in America, ambivalence remains and persists about its morality the past few years, as percentages tipped a bit "right."
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The deeds you do may be the only sermon some people may hear today (Francis of Assisi); Win an argument, lose a soul (Fulton Sheen)
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#34
(12-30-2019, 05:40 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote:
Quote:Fionnchu
How do you suggest that children be taught such a Marian message of likely damnation for so many if the Fatima and related apparitions are to be believed as literally true?

I'm sorry you went through that. :(

Perhaps the concept that St. Therese grasped so fully as a child would have helped.  At least that's what I relied on to counter our afternoons watching The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima while we ate fresh chocolate chip cookies and took a "rain day"  (homeschooling term for hanging out in your jammies :P).

In the long run, kids can handle the knowledge of both even if it's frightening at first as I'm sure it was for the Fatima children.  

Most of all, that seed planted in your heart, Fionnchu, which was forgotten for a while made an indelible mark which surfaced again in your adult life and you just knew it was true and that you must repent.  It's hard to give up adult sins without that kind of urgency.

We begin with the dread of the loss of Heaven and pains of Hell, but grow to mature in motivation because He is deserving of all our love.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  No wonder there is so little wisdom to be found.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement, SHL. That seed did spring up again, decades later, first to germinate my doctoral research in one stage of my life--about halfway so far--and recently again, as a reminder of repentance. And I love chocolate chip cookies as a cure-all!
The deeds you do may be the only sermon some people may hear today (Francis of Assisi); Win an argument, lose a soul (Fulton Sheen)
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#35
(12-30-2019, 05:40 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: Like I said earlier, if you watch the video Zedta posted, it's clear that lady was saying that 99% of those that go to Heaven will have to pass through Purgatory.  For some, it's a quick ascent and for others, it takes a long time.

Purgatory is a huge mercy and I'd rather be cleaned off of all my debt before I enter before the throne. <--This!

I'm grateful for its existence and I trust the Lord will require more of those who were given more and less of those who weren't.
You got the point, I think, because much of what keeps us out of Heaven is imperfection. to one degree or another and, but most especially, GUILT, self-guilt.

Many of the books and other literature I've read on the near-death and afterlife experiences, point out how Jesus actually doesn't remember our confessed sins, but we DO! And that's the rub, as it were. Its is what makes the unrepentant sinner run away from the light, from Jesus into the arms of evil. It is a serious flaw we all have, this guilt thing, that hanging on to the stain of a past sin. Confession cleans away the sin, but there is often a stain left behind that we let stay there. We don't fully forgive ourselves and I think that is what we have to clean ourselves of before we can ever enter into heaven and the Perfectness of that reality.

We originated in Heaven and were pure spirit, purely of the soul of God. When we were born, we inherited the curse of Adam and Eve, so to speak and things often just get worse from then on as to the appearance of our soul to what it once was. That soul never forgets, I think and we may use our spirit, our intelligence to rationalize a whole lot of stuff as we go through life, but in the final ending, we carry with us a bunch of 'baggage' to the judgement seat of Jesus and I'd bet it really can show when compared with how our soul looked when we left for earth.

I mean that all in the generally-speaking sense, BTW.

I think we have to be thoroughly cleaned, so to speak, to be in Heaven and Purgatory is that place that Jesus told his followers He was going to prepare for them (us) in His Father's House of many Mansions. After all, He'd just cleaned out "The Bosom of Abraham", where faithful Jews who died under the Law of Moses were waiting for Him to free them. It wasn't in Heaven, but seemed like they could see hell from there.

Perhaps this was an early manifestation/configuration of Purgatory? Perhaps this is what He was referring to? A place of cleansing that He knew was gonna be required? After all, Dismas, was told he'd be with Him in Paradise, not heaven and Dismas was the first Saint too and the souls in Purgatory are always referred to as being Saints.

Just speculating.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
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I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
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Fiction has to make sense
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If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
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You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

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“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
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#36
There is no pre-existence of the soul, and it is nonsense to try to imply that God forgets, and even more that God forgets while we remember. God knows everything, and everything we know.

Sometimes we allow guilt to crush us, but that has nothing to do with remembering or not. I remember the things I have confessed. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting.
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#37
(01-01-2020, 07:22 AM)Daniel-AH Wrote: There is no pre-existence of the soul,
Jeremiah 1:5 seems to indicate God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb as He says to the Prophet:

Douay-Rheims Bible

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, granted, perhaps that is for Jeremiah alone, but then why are we said to be in "exile"? From what or where then if not Heaven?
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#38
(01-01-2020, 11:51 AM)Zedta Wrote: Jeremiah 1:5 seems to indicate God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb as He says to the Prophet:

Douay-Rheims Bible

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, granted, perhaps that is for Jeremiah alone, but then why are we said to be in "exile"? From what or where then if not Heaven?

I would say that clearly refers to God's plan and foreknowledge. Observe how in the quote you give, the sanctification takes place while in the womb, while it is knowledge that is there before existence.

We do are in exile from Heaven, but not because we were each in a pre-exile state, but because of the Fall, the exile of humanity from Heaven by the stain of Original Sin.
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#39
(01-01-2020, 01:53 PM)Daniel-AH Wrote:
(01-01-2020, 11:51 AM)Zedta Wrote: Jeremiah 1:5 seems to indicate God knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb as He says to the Prophet:

Douay-Rheims Bible

Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, granted, perhaps that is for Jeremiah alone, but then why are we said to be in "exile"? From what or where then if not Heaven?

I would say that clearly refers to God's plan and foreknowledge. Observe how in the quote you give, the sanctification takes place while in the womb, while it is knowledge that is there before existence.

We do are in exile from Heaven, but not because we were each in a pre-exile state, but because of the Fall, the exile of humanity from Heaven by the stain of Original Sin.
So one could also say that Jeremiah, being "sanctified" as it says in this verse, before he came forth from the womb, would have predated the Blessed Virgin in being without Original Sin? No, but, one would have to assume that if what you say is true.

I still believe my conclusion, although, as always, I leave room for doubt, of course.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#40
(01-01-2020, 02:39 PM)Zedta Wrote: So one could also say that Jeremiah, being "sanctified" as it says in this verse, before he came forth from the womb, would have predated the Blessed Virgin in being without Original Sin? No, but, one would have to assume that if what you say is true.

What's the problem with that? Adam and Eve were also created without original sin. Besides, Mary was conceived without sin; Jeremias (and John the Baptist) were conceived with it, but later sanctified.
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