Mortification through the Novus Ordo Mass
#11
(12-28-2019, 10:43 PM)LionHippo Wrote: Like "Gift of Finest Wheat" with as much vocal power and enthusiasm as you can muster. :D

That made me shudder, haha, that would definitely be painful for me
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#12
(12-28-2019, 09:49 PM)Paul Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 09:33 PM)LionHippo Wrote: To be honest, and I say this with charity, I think it approaches spiritual pride to decide that attending the Ordinary Form Mass, where Christ is truly present, as a type of "mortification."  As if Jesus is somehow more fully present in the TLM than He is at the OF Mass

He's also truly present at a Black Mass. He would also be present if the priest went to the bread aisle at the grocery store and started consecrating. Or if the priest decided to omit everything in the Mass except the words of consecration. The real presence of Christ, while important, is not the only important thing.

While it depends on the particular Mass, the new Mass is far more focused on man than the old Mass is. It can be very distracting. Especially when the priest decides he needs to explain how the genuflecting is done during the Creed. And not as part of the homily. I haven't read St John of the Cross, but it sounds crazy to me that an attachment to the Mass that the Church celebrated for centuries and that formed countless Saints is a bad thing to be attached to. I suppose if his point is about being attached to some sort of form of prayer for its own sake, rather than God, but the old Mass is far more Catholic than the new one is. If you use Eucharistic Prayer 2, an Anglican or Lutheran minister could (invalidly) celebrate the new Mass, and wouldn't see anything objectionable in it.

Surely you can tell the difference between a Black Mass and an Ordinary Form Mass, or the presence of Christ at Mass as compared to a hypothetical "bread aisle" example.  The most conspicuous difference being that Christ's Church gave us the Ordinary Form Mass.

The Latin Mass is not immune to error.  The priest could jumble the words of any part of the Mass and it's most likely that nobody would notice.  

Christ did not hand down the Mass in a prescribed, immutable form.  He did not list the Latin Mass among the requirements to achieve holiness and enter heaven.  The Church has the authority to institute forms and rites of Mass.  I agree that the Latin Mass should continue to exist and spread.  But it is unfair to claim that there is nothing positive about the OF Mass.
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#13
(12-28-2019, 11:24 PM)LionHippo Wrote: Surely you can tell the difference between a Black Mass and an Ordinary Form Mass, or the presence of Christ at Mass as compared to a hypothetical "bread aisle" example.  The most conspicuous difference being that Christ's Church gave us the Ordinary Form Mass.

That's not the point. If it were only about Christ's presence, any of those examples are just as good. So there must be something more than just validity. I'd agree the new Mass is better than those, but it's still inferior to the traditional Mass.

(12-28-2019, 11:24 PM)LionHippo Wrote: The Latin Mass is not immune to error.  The priest could jumble the words of any part of the Mass and it's most likely that nobody would notice.

I'd call that a feature, not a bug. If the priest says the wrong words and people don't notice, it can't bother them. But at the new Mass, where everything's said out loud, they'll definitely notice, and it can be distracting. If the priest does it regularly, it shows contempt for the Church and the liturgy, and, ultimately, God.

But additions are far more distracting, and centred on man, than any accidental omission. I've been to a Mass where the priest accidentally omitted the Last Gospel, since he wasn't used to saying the old Mass and was filling in for another priest. He's human - it happens - and he apologised for it when he said Mass again for us. But at almost every new Mass I've been to, the priest directly addresses the people about all sorts of things. Does he really need to tell us at the beginning of the Mass that we're celebrating Jesus's birthday today? Are any of us so out of it that we don't realise it's Christmas, and we just happened to show up to Mass on a Wednesday? He can make his remarks during the homily, and if he has to say anything about what he's about to do, the old Mass provides it for him: Introibo ad altare Dei. The old Mass starts by addressing God; the new Mass starts by addressing men.

(12-28-2019, 11:24 PM)LionHippo Wrote: Christ did not hand down the Mass in a prescribed, immutable form.  He did not list the Latin Mass among the requirements to achieve holiness and enter heaven.  The Church has the authority to institute forms and rites of Mass.  I agree that the Latin Mass should continue to exist and spread.  But it is unfair to claim that there is nothing positive about the OF Mass.

I never said there was nothing positive about the new Mass. If it helps you grow in holiness, great. But just because it's approved by the Church doesn't mean it's just as good as the old Mass. Not all laws are good, whether canonical or secular, and just because something is permitted doesn't make it a good practice. I suppose you think the fasting and abstinence rules are good practices because The Pope Says So, and it's a good thing that we now fast two days a year and abstain on seven.
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#14
(12-28-2019, 09:59 PM)LionHippo Wrote:
(12-27-2019, 11:08 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: Yes, have thought about this a lot. When i have to go to the NO it is like a penance. The problem for me, though, is that it doesn’t exactly stamp out spiritual pride (though it may cause me to examine my attachment to the TLM) — it tends to make me feel angry. Not at all the poor people who have no other option or knowledge — I feel sad for them — but at the whole way the McDonalds-drive-thru mass is done, the Protestant-ness of it, how this has been allowed to take over, how robbed of the Tradition of the Church most Catholics have been... and I leave feeling that i’ve lost grace. Personally, I need the overflowing grace and holiness from the TLM I go to, so I try not to miss and to attend the NO only when necessary. But if you have the fortitude to do that voluntarily as an intentional mortification, then God bless you.

Why do you feel sad for people who attend the Ordinary Form Mass?  Those who primarily attend the Latin Mass can become quasi-esoteric in their thinking.  There is a good talk on Sensus Fidelium by Fr. Ripperger where he warns Traditionalists to avoid this way of thinking, one where Traditionalists look down on other Catholics and immediately pity them.  They often presume to know more about the faith than those who attend the OF Mass, as if living out the Gospel depends primary on which liturgical format one chooses to attend.  To feel sad for your fellow Catholics at Mass reflects a spiritual pride itself, as if their faith life is somehow lacking because they do not primarily attend the Latin Mass.

After my conversion about 14 years ago, I knew of only the NO. I actually loved it for a while (in spite of ALWAYS having a feeling of sadness and of something being not right, which I couldn’t have really articulated at the time) and attended quite frequently and definitely never missed a Sunday or Holy Day.  without a valid reason. After about — I don’t know — maybe 9 or 10 years, I realized that I was simply not growing in the love and knowledge of the Lord in the way I had desired from the beginning. I started asking questions of other daily communicants and of priests and on Catholic online forums and couldn’t get any helpful answers — if I was even “allowed” to ask certain questions. My faith was starting to become shaky and even began having something of a crisis.

When I found the TLM my faith, my knowledge and love of God, IGNITED. All of my misgivings were resolved. I experienced and still experience so much grace and joy and growth, understanding and the hope of some ability to actually begin to live the Catholic faith the way my heart desired from the time of my conversion. 

Why do I feel sorry for people? Well, for one thing, I know some of them personally and know they are not learning what the Faith actually is and teaches. Others I observe doing things like chatting and laughing loudly throughout Mass, blithely doing things they shouldn’t be during Mass, high-tailing it out of Mass the moment (or before) it is over, or socializing like there’s no tomorrow on their way out, among many other things. Do I feel one bit “better” than them? Not in the least. I’m sure I’m most likely not as good as most of them. That hasn’t got anything to do with wishing everyone could be “dining” on the perfect food instead of going to MacDonald’s, though. Or wishing everyone was able to participate in giving Our Blessed Lord the kind of worship He deserves.

ETA: Also, I wholeheartedly stand by lex orandi lex credendi lex vivendi
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#15
(12-28-2019, 10:05 PM)Thank LionHippo Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 09:53 PM)Augustinian Wrote: And that would be a proper thing to note, clearly I need to mortify my spiritual pride if I would even deign such a thing as a mortification. It's not that Christ is less present at one liturgy as opposed to another, I don't doubt that, I know He is. What I was getting at is that the form of the Mass, i.e. the Novus Ordo, bothers me personally to the point that I would avoid it. This is where the mortifying element comes for me, because the NO liturgy fills me with repugnance. Therefore, subjecting myself to something I find repugnant, in order to commune with Christ in the Eucharist, would seem to be a potential form of self-mortification.

I mean, is not the point of mortification to subject yourself to things which are unappealing to your own will for love of God?

Consider that by saying and doing so, essentially you are communicating to Jesus:  "Christ, I know you are present in the Eucharist here, and ordinarily even that's not good enough for me to be here - but this time, even though I find this Mass repulsive despite your presence, I need to be here in order to humble myself."

If the Mass is good enough for Christ to be there, it should be good enough for all of us.

Now don't get me wrong - by all means, if you prefer the Latin Mass, I find nothing wrong with that.  But to choose attending Mass as a form of mortification does not follow, since Christ is greater than all of us, and He is there.

Yes, He is there, He has to be there, and it can be very painful to see how He can be treated at His Mass, and that pain, repugnance, etc. can be offered up to Him as a penance.
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#16
(12-27-2019, 10:44 PM)Augustinian Wrote: This thought has been crossing my mind lately: does anyone else think there could be spiritual benefit of mortification by attending a Novus Ordo Mass?

Right now I exclusively attend TLM, and I know many of you do this as well, but in some ways it seems it leads to a sort of spiritual comfort, or complacency, within myself. I've been reading the Ascent of Mount Carmel and have noted St. John of the Cross' warnings against attachment not just to physical things, but spiritual too. Could this strict adherence to the TLM be identified as a sort of spiritual attachment? It made me wonder if perhaps I need to attend a Novus Ordo every so often to learn detachment. I have a couple of reverent NO parishes near me that I used to attend before finding my current SSPX parish. I was thinking about doing this just to stamp out any spiritual pride I may have of my current blessings.


Short answer: I think not.

He's blest you with the ability to worship at the Mass of the ages, so why not go there? 

I'd accept the crosses God actually sends you. Not saying you're not, but this isn't one of them....So, maybe just be thankful for this grace He's given you without any reservations. 

  :)
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#17
There's a vast disconnect- -a rupture- - between the Mass of Paul VI and the TLM. They represent a different law of prayer and belief which, despite the legalistic wordsmithery of its apologists is clear for all the world to see.  Why subject yourself to such a dangerous parody of the Latin Tradition? 

As others have said God will give you plenty opportunities to bear suffering in stride. You've got access to something far more steeped in the Latin Patrimony than the Mass of Paul VI-- don't waste it.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
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#18
(12-28-2019, 09:53 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 09:33 PM)LionHippo Wrote:
(12-27-2019, 10:44 PM)Augustinian Wrote: This thought has been crossing my mind lately: does anyone else think there could be spiritual benefit of mortification by attending a Novus Ordo Mass?

Right now I exclusively attend TLM, and I know many of you do this as well, but in some ways it seems it leads to a sort of spiritual comfort, or complacency, within myself. I've been reading the Ascent of Mount Carmel and have noted St. John of the Cross' warnings against attachment not just to physical things, but spiritual too. Could this strict adherence to the TLM be identified as a sort of spiritual attachment? It made me wonder if perhaps I need to attend a Novus Ordo every so often to learn detachment. I have a couple of reverent NO parishes near me that I used to attend before finding my current SSPX parish. I was thinking about doing this just to stamp out any spiritual pride I may have of my current blessings.

To be honest, and I say this with charity, I think it approaches spiritual pride to decide that attending the Ordinary Form Mass, where Christ is truly present, as a type of "mortification."  As if Jesus is somehow more fully present in the TLM than He is at the OF Mass  Furthermore, if the OF Masses near you are reverent anyway, I'm not sure how much "mortification" that would really provide.

And that would be a proper thing to note, clearly I need to mortify my spiritual pride if I would even deign such a thing as a mortification. It's not that Christ is less present at one liturgy as opposed to another, I don't doubt that, I know He is. What I was getting at is that the form of the Mass, i.e. the Novus Ordo, bothers me personally to the point that I would avoid it. This is where the mortifying element comes for me, because the NO liturgy fills me with repugnance. Therefore, subjecting myself to something I find repugnant, in order to commune with Christ in the Eucharist, would seem to be a potential form of self-mortification.

I mean, is not the point of mortification to subject yourself to things which are unappealing to your own will for love of God?
Why does it bother you, though? Does it bother you because of its more Protestantized tendencies? Does it bother you because of its modernism? If yes, then going is not mortification but rather it is subjecting yourself to unwholesome things. Mortification is not giving up that which bothers you. It is giving up things that cause separation from God. A smoker giving up cigarettes is an act of mortification. A person who is horrified by the damaging effects of smoking is not doing anything worshipful by picking up a cigarette one day. Your logical reasoning needs a bit of a refresher.
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