Sex questions
#11
(01-15-2020, 11:55 AM)Porkncheese Wrote:
(01-15-2020, 11:17 AM)ServusDei Wrote: The procreative act is essential for the reproduction of our species. Any perversion/improper usage of the genital organs (such as masturbation) is clearly a sin, and an offense against the natural law. Non-vaginal sex falls into the category of masturbation, and is just as bad as contraception, if not worse.

Can you please provide references so that we can distinguish bible/church teaching from opinion.

"CCC 2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life," teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life." "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.""

I get that you're looking for a legalistic answer, but there are good reasons for these doctrines.
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#12
(01-15-2020, 12:38 PM)ServusDei Wrote:
(01-15-2020, 11:42 AM)Augustinian Wrote: What if it is a part of the procreative act? Or are we just supposed to be wholly utilitarian about the conjugal act in marriage?
What exactly is procreative about non-vaginal sex? We are not to be wholly utilitarian, however, we must not act like beasts, merely seeking pleasure. We are better than that, we can reason and in so doing find the Truth.

Stimulation towards the end of the procreative act, perhaps? The question here is not in such an act as an end in itself. I don't see how it can be sinful if it is a means toward the procreative act? I'm not trying to say that anything goes in marriage, but let's be real here, when you're in the act certain things may or may not happen.

St. Paul himself recommended marriage to those who cannot control themselves: "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor. 7:9) Of course, keeping in mind that it is ideal to not marry at all, but some do not have that vocation.

Edit: And I ask this out of humility, I honestly have not seen a clear-cut magisterial answer on this and would love to know.

Jack89: I guess my question falls into the realm of what constitutes an "ordered procreative act?" If such a thing like oral stimulation occurs, but only purely as a means to the end of the conjugal act, then how can it be sinful?
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#13
These acts are ok between married persons so long as they are an act of foreplay.

For clarity's sake the term Imperfect Sodomy is used to describe sodomy between a man and a woman.

Here's a quote from Fr. Heribert Jone's "Moral Theology"(Commonly used prior to Vatican II)

Quote:I. Imperfect Sodomy, i.e., rectal intercouse, is a grave sin when the seminal fluid is wasted.

-Excluding the sodomidtcal intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without the danger of pollution.
 This would apply to oral acts as well.


As the nature of this subject matter seems a bit dangerous, I'm going to be staying out of this thread from here on out.  Good luck folks!
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#14
(01-15-2020, 12:56 PM)MacPasquale Wrote: These acts are ok between married persons so long as they are an act of foreplay.

For clarity's sake the term Imperfect Sodomy is used to describe sodomy between a man and a woman.

Here's a quote from Fr. Heribert Jone's "Moral Theology"(Commonly used prior to Vatican II)

Quote:I. Imperfect Sodomy, i.e., rectal intercouse, is a grave sin when the seminal fluid is wasted.

-Excluding the sodomidtcal intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without the danger of pollution.
 This would apply to oral acts as well.


As the nature of this subject matter seems a bit dangerous, I'm going to be staying out of this thread from here on out.  Good luck folks!
Perfectly clarifies my own questions. Thanks
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#15
(01-15-2020, 12:51 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Stimulation towards the end of the procreative act, perhaps? The question here is not in such an act as an end in itself. I don't see how it can be sinful if it is a means toward the procreative act? I'm not trying to say that anything goes in marriage, but let's be real here, when you're in the act certain things may or may not happen.
Let's presume that a couple engage in oral sex towards the purpose of the procreative act. They are not only taking unnecessary risks in that procreative act, but they do so in a unnatural and sinful (see my previous post, the bottom part) manner. It would be better to copulate on the edge of a cliff, than have oral or anal sex.

The end does not justify the means. Can two men sodomize in preparation to legitimate sex with their wives?
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#16
(01-15-2020, 12:51 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Jack89: I guess my question falls into the realm of what constitutes an "ordered procreative act?" If such a thing like oral stimulation occurs, but only purely as a means to the end of the conjugal act, then how can it be sinful?

I suppose it depends on intent and results.  Get carried away and you never get to the conjugal act.  Make it a habit and you're on that slippery slope, the one that the last 60-70 years demonstrates so well.
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#17
(01-15-2020, 12:47 PM)jack89 Wrote: "CCC 2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life," teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life." "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.""
I get that you're looking for a legalistic answer, but there are good reasons for these doctrines.

That's exactly what I was after. Thanks.
Feel free to list the reasons for these doctrines as you may have some that I hadn't yet considered.
Where can I find the document that contains that?
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#18
(01-15-2020, 12:56 PM)MacPasquale Wrote: These acts are ok between married persons so long as they are an act of foreplay.

For clarity's sake the term Imperfect Sodomy is used to describe sodomy between a man and a woman.

Here's a quote from Fr. Heribert Jone's "Moral Theology"(Commonly used prior to Vatican II)

Quote:I. Imperfect Sodomy, i.e., rectal intercouse, is a grave sin when the seminal fluid is wasted.

-Excluding the sodomidtcal intention it is neither sodomy nor a grave sin if intercourse is begun in a rectal manner with the intention of consummating it naturally or if some sodomitical action is posited without the danger of pollution.
 This would apply to oral acts as well.


As the nature of this subject matter seems a bit dangerous, I'm going to be staying out of this thread from here on out.  Good luck folks!

Sodomy is always a danger to one's health, both because the anus is not made to handle sex and if you go from anus to vagina you infect the vagina so I can't see how the Church would allow it.

And thanks to porn, wives are being pressured to allow for it and girls are using it as pregnancy risk-free sex.

TV shows (including Masterpiece Theatre) are also promoting it.
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#19
Good talk that goes into the questions raised here:


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#20
There is also a spiritual component to anal sex.  It is said to "Open the third eye" of Kundalini sex magic.

Some say the Freemason "eye of Providence" symbol is actually the anus whereby you become initiated in the higher orders of the club.

I believe the powers that shouldn't be want everyone initiated into this particular club.

Google anal sex opens third eye for more info.
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