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#11
(01-27-2020, 03:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-27-2020, 02:17 AM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote: I'll admit the situation is a bit strange with your Ukrainian pastor.

The problem is that, canonically, he's probably no longer NES's Pastor. NES was chrismated in the Melkite Rite, he now belongs to the Melkite Rite, and there is a Melkite Parish available.
Of course, the Melkite Pastor should have explained all this before the chrismation.
They told me I could continue going to the Ukrainian parish. I had told the Ukrainian priest a week before that I would be completing the religious instruction at the Melkite parish. I think I'll be asking my boss to include Sundays as one of my three off days though so that I can go to the Melkite parish but I have strong sensitivities to crowds.
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#12
(01-26-2020, 10:41 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 08:05 PM)newenglandsun Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 07:37 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 03:09 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: I was chrismated Melkite last night and told I could receive my first Eucharist today. I showed my Ukrainian pastor the certificate of chrismation and he told me while technically I could receive the Eucharist he still wants to question me before letting me receive it. He stopped short of excommunicating me all together by asking me why I don't just go to the Melkite parish instead. It seems he wants to excommunicate me from his parish.

I'm not sure why you would join go to a Melkite priest for Chrismation, when you say you have a Ukranian pastor.

Are you speaking of a Ukrainian Greek Catholic pastor?

If so, I wonder why you would arrange to be Chrismated in a different rite. Canonically, even in the East, the rite in which you are received is usually the rite to which you belong. If you were Chrismated in the Mekite Church, then this would mean you are a Melkite, unless some other Canonical provision were to intervene.

I could see why the priest might have some questions in that case. Perhaps he had previous experience with people who were trying to enter the Church going elsewhere or around his supervision. If so, that also might be why he's wanting to ask questions.

They are literally both Catholic faiths. As for why has been explained elsewhere. It's an unusual situation for me.

If they are both sui juris Churches in union with the Pope, then of course, there is, strictly speaking, no Canonical prohibition for receiving Communion.

You did not specify, though, and given you've previous said you were a "Orthodox in union with the Pope" it's a fair question to see if we are talking about a schismatic Orthodox Church when you say Ukrainian. There is a Moscow-tied Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I was assuming that's not what you meant, but it was a possibility, so perhaps part of the discussion to have.

However, if you intended to become a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, then you should have been Chrismated in that rite unless there were some overarching reason, and then it would be something discussed and arranged between the pastors since there are Canonical issues involved.

And I can understand the annoyance of the Ukrainian priest, again, because by being Chrismated in a different rite, he's not really your pastor, and in general we are meant to see out our parish for the Sacraments, unless there is a good reason to go elsewhere.

He may have over-reacted, but since the East can be a bit messy with the plurality of Churches and theology (the Latin West, is a mess and it's supposed to be more uniform!), as I suggested, perhaps he had a bad experience with the Melkites not following some procedure, or not asking important questions or giving necessary instruction, thus frustrating his work, and you just happened to be the punching bag for his annoyance. It does happen.
I was told by one of the deacons at the Melkite parish that I could still go to the Ukrainian Catholic parish. I told the priest last week I would complete religious instruction at the Melkite parish and his reaction was positive then. The Melkite parish is large and I have a huge crowd sensitivity from my HFASD.
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#13
(01-27-2020, 08:42 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: I was told by one of the deacons at the Melkite parish that I could still go to the Ukrainian Catholic parish. I told the priest last week I would complete religious instruction at the Melkite parish and his reaction was positive then. The Melkite parish is large and I have a huge crowd sensitivity from my HFASD.

You can attend a Church of any Catholic Rite. But, as I understand it, by being Chrismated in the Melkite Rite, you are a Melkite. Unless things have been changed, you can only change your Rite with permission from Rome. Simply attending a Parish of another Rite does nothing.

I am Serbian Rite, subject to the Ruthenian Eparch of Parma. There is no Church near enough to attend. I attend the Latin Rite exclusively because of that. It doesn't change my Rite. I'm still Serbian.

You say, 'I told the priest last week I would complete religious instruction at the Melkite parish and his reaction was positive then.' But did you tell him that you were planning on being Chrismated in the Melkite Rite? There is a big difference between completing your religious instruction in another Parish and being Chrismated in another Rite.

Anyway, I hope everything works out. You're in my prayers, and welcome home!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#14
(01-27-2020, 06:31 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-27-2020, 08:42 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: I was told by one of the deacons at the Melkite parish that I could still go to the Ukrainian Catholic parish. I told the priest last week I would complete religious instruction at the Melkite parish and his reaction was positive then. The Melkite parish is large and I have a huge crowd sensitivity from my HFASD.

You can attend a Church of any Catholic Rite. But, as I understand it, by being Chrismated in the Melkite Rite, you are a Melkite. Unless things have been changed, you can only change your Rite with permission from Rome. Simply attending a Parish of another Rite does nothing.

I am Serbian Rite, subject to the Ruthenian Eparch of Parma. There is no Church near enough to attend. I attend the Latin Rite exclusively because of that. It doesn't change my Rite. I'm still Serbian.

You say, 'I told the priest last week I would complete religious instruction at the Melkite parish and his reaction was positive then.' But did you tell him that you were planning on being Chrismated in the Melkite Rite? There is a big difference between completing your religious instruction in another Parish and being Chrismated in another Rite.

Anyway, I hope everything works out. You're in my prayers, and welcome home!
I did not tell him that, no. But neither was my intention to change rites. Only to receive communion. I had been told that I would be able to receive communion there by the Melkites. As well as be permitted to go there on Sundays as I had been doing. I had not asked to change rites. The Ukrainian priest was the first to say no. And has been the only one to say I can't receive communion there.
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#15
(01-27-2020, 07:18 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: I did not tell him that, no. But neither was my intention to change rites. Only to receive communion. I had been told that I would be able to receive communion there by the Melkites. As well as be permitted to go there on Sundays as I had been doing. I had not asked to change rites. The Ukrainian priest was the first to say no. And has been the only one to say I can't receive communion there.

And the whole situation with Rites should have all been explained to you by the Melkite Deacon AND the Ukrainian Priest. As to where you can attend Divine Liturgy and receive the Holy Mysteries, as I said, you're Catholic now. You can attend Divine Liturgy or Mass in any Catholic Church of any Catholic Rite and receive Holy Communion. But you probably ought to look into the question of your Rite, because it may very well make a difference as to the Holy Days of Obligation and things like fasting discipline that you are bound to.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#16
(01-28-2020, 02:29 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-27-2020, 07:18 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: I did not tell him that, no. But neither was my intention to change rites. Only to receive communion. I had been told that I would be able to receive communion there by the Melkites. As well as be permitted to go there on Sundays as I had been doing. I had not asked to change rites. The Ukrainian priest was the first to say no. And has been the only one to say I can't receive communion there.

And the whole situation with Rites should have all been explained to you by the Melkite Deacon AND the Ukrainian Priest. As to where you can attend Divine Liturgy and receive the Holy Mysteries, as I said, you're Catholic now. You can attend Divine Liturgy or Mass in any Catholic Church of any Catholic Rite and receive Holy Communion. But you probably ought to look into the question of your Rite, because it may very well make a difference as to the Holy Days of Obligation and things like fasting discipline that you are bound to.
Correct. I am under Melkite jurisdiction. But this was a question about receiving sacraments at the Ukrainian Catholic parish. Since the Divine liturgy in question is specifically the Sunday liturgy, there should not have been a problem. Both parishes follow the Gregorian calendar. It's the Ukrainian Catholic priest who has another parish in another state which follows the Julian calendar. But both have the same feast day calendars (Melkite parish and Ukrainian parish in question).
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#17
(01-28-2020, 02:29 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-27-2020, 07:18 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: I did not tell him that, no. But neither was my intention to change rites. Only to receive communion. I had been told that I would be able to receive communion there by the Melkites. As well as be permitted to go there on Sundays as I had been doing. I had not asked to change rites. The Ukrainian priest was the first to say no. And has been the only one to say I can't receive communion there.

And the whole situation with Rites should have all been explained to you by the Melkite Deacon AND the Ukrainian Priest. As to where you can attend Divine Liturgy and receive the Holy Mysteries, as I said, you're Catholic now. You can attend Divine Liturgy or Mass in any Catholic Church of any Catholic Rite and receive Holy Communion. But you probably ought to look into the question of your Rite, because it may very well make a difference as to the Holy Days of Obligation and things like fasting discipline that you are bound to.
I also told what happened to a Reader at my Melkite parish, a Ruthenian deacon I knew from my previous home, and a former Roman Catholic priest (now Orthodox), who all stayed the priest was in the wrong (in various ways). The Ruthenian stated the priest is potentially subject to sanctions if I make a formal ecclesiastical complaint and if he continues to refuse me sacraments (confession, Eucharist, anointing) at his parish on the basis that I am Melkite and not Ukrainian because as a Catholic (period), in good standing, he is obligated to. "Must" was put between asterisks in his email to me. Especially if my Melkite parish and pastor have authorized me to attend Divine liturgy there. I suppose I could pursue the possibility that my pastor write a formal letter of authorization to the Ukrainian priest on my behalf but as I said, I may not be going back there either way. Resolving work schedule issues would be less of a hassle and far more easy than dealing with this priest and I have no use of his parish now that I am Melkite.
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#18
(01-28-2020, 03:40 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: Correct. I am under Melkite jurisdiction. But this was a question about receiving sacraments at the Ukrainian Catholic parish. Since the Divine liturgy in question is specifically the Sunday liturgy, there should not have been a problem. Both parishes follow the Gregorian calendar. It's the Ukrainian Catholic priest who has another parish in another state which follows the Julian calendar. But both have the same feast day calendars (Melkite parish and Ukrainian parish in question).

OK, you know you're Melkite. I wasn't talking about which Calendar the Parishes use, but Holy Days of Obligation which may vary from Rite to Rite, or for that matter Diocese to Diocese. As an example, in the Latin Rite, Hawaii only has two HDOs, Immaculate Conception and Christmas. The Ascension is transferred to a Sunday in every Province except those of Boston, Hartford, New York, Newark, Omaha and Philadelphia. Thus, those Provinces have one more HDO than other Provinces and four more than the Diocese of Hawaii.

And fasting regulations are set by the Ordinary of each Diocese.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#19
(01-28-2020, 04:30 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(01-28-2020, 03:40 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: Correct. I am under Melkite jurisdiction. But this was a question about receiving sacraments at the Ukrainian Catholic parish. Since the Divine liturgy in question is specifically the Sunday liturgy, there should not have been a problem. Both parishes follow the Gregorian calendar. It's the Ukrainian Catholic priest who has another parish in another state which follows the Julian calendar. But both have the same feast day calendars (Melkite parish and Ukrainian parish in question).

OK, you know you're Melkite. I wasn't talking about which Calendar the Parishes use, but Holy Days of Obligation which may vary from Rite to Rite, or for that matter Diocese to Diocese. As an example, in the Latin Rite, Hawaii only has two HDOs, Immaculate Conception and Christmas. The Ascension is transferred to a Sunday in every Province except those of Boston, Hartford, New York, Newark, Omaha and Philadelphia. Thus, those Provinces have one more HDO than other Provinces and four more than the Diocese of Hawaii.

And fasting regulations are set by the Ordinary of each Diocese.
I'd been following Melkite fasting rules. And I'd been following Melkite HDOs as well. The Ukrainian parish has no full time pastor and so realistically, the only HDOs that would overlap would have been Nativity, Holy Thursday, and Great Friday. (As well as HDOs that fall on Sundays.) Thus, attending there would have meant I'd only be going there for an HDO as opposed to the Melkite parish. But as stated, I don't think this priest is going to let me participate in divine liturgy at his parish.

I explained in private to MM why I ended up being chrismated at the Melkite parish as well. TBH, this priest seems to have it out against my reception into the faith from the beginning. Pushed the goal posts (so to speak) further and further back. Despite my catechist telling him I knew the faith, he'd repeatedly ask the catechist and remind the catechist to teach me. Even though I had told him my desire to convert, it wasn't until several months later that he finally decided I could convert (unless I'm mistaken, I honestly believed that was God's decision). Even after I got him the paperwork for my baptism and he had gotten the letter from the bishop eager to receive me, he never scheduled a chrismation. (Again, this in spite of the catechist testifying to my readiness.) Three weeks ago, I had asked him about chrismation again and he once again asked the catechist if he was teaching me the faith. The man was clearly acting more as a magician pulling out rabbit after rabbit out of his hat looking for a way to block my conversion. Hence, why I finally decided to go to the Melkite parish which I had been going to for vespers and holy day obligations (except Nativity, Holy Thursday, and Great Friday when I went to the Ukrainian parish).

Again, the issue is not that my Melkite pastor is forbidding me from continuing to go to the Ukrainian parish, especially if I feel more comfortable there (<30 people compared to >200 people), the issue is that the Ukrainian priest is not letting me participate in divine liturgy as a Catholic visitor until he "questions" me further. I asked him if the Melkites are not in communion with the Ukrainian Catholics. He told me that being "faithful" to the Ukrainian Catholics is not the same as being "faithful" to the Melkite Catholics. If the question is one strictly of receiving the sacraments, I am wondering why he would forbid me from receiving communion at his parish, especially if I am Catholic.
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#20
(01-28-2020, 05:05 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: I'd been following Melkite fasting rules. And I'd been following Melkite HDOs as well. The Ukrainian parish has no full time pastor and so realistically, the only HDOs that would overlap would have been Nativity, Holy Thursday, and Great Friday. (As well as HDOs that fall on Sundays.) Thus, attending there would have meant I'd only be going there for an HDO as opposed to the Melkite parish. But as stated, I don't think this priest is going to let me participate in divine liturgy at his parish.

I explained in private to MM why I ended up being chrismated at the Melkite parish as well. TBH, this priest seems to have it out against my reception into the faith from the beginning. Pushed the goal posts (so to speak) further and further back. Despite my catechist telling him I knew the faith, he'd repeatedly ask the catechist and remind the catechist to teach me. Even though I had told him my desire to convert, it wasn't until several months later that he finally decided I could convert (unless I'm mistaken, I honestly believed that was God's decision). Even after I got him the paperwork for my baptism and he had gotten the letter from the bishop eager to receive me, he never scheduled a chrismation. (Again, this in spite of the catechist testifying to my readiness.) Three weeks ago, I had asked him about chrismation again and he once again asked the catechist if he was teaching me the faith. The man was clearly acting more as a magician pulling out rabbit after rabbit out of his hat looking for a way to block my conversion. Hence, why I finally decided to go to the Melkite parish which I had been going to for vespers and holy day obligations (except Nativity, Holy Thursday, and Great Friday when I went to the Ukrainian parish).

Again, the issue is not that my Melkite pastor is forbidding me from continuing to go to the Ukrainian parish, especially if I feel more comfortable there (<30 people compared to >200 people), the issue is that the Ukrainian priest is not letting me participate in divine liturgy as a Catholic visitor until he "questions" me further. I asked him if the Melkites are not in communion with the Ukrainian Catholics. He told me that being "faithful" to the Ukrainian Catholics is not the same as being "faithful" to the Melkite Catholics. If the question is one strictly of receiving the sacraments, I am wondering why he would forbid me from receiving communion at his parish, especially if I am Catholic.


This priest sounds like he's trying to build more of a Ukrainian social club than a parish. From what I've heard, that's unfortunately a problem in some Ukrainian parishes.

I'm sorry you are dealing with anxiety in large groups. I can understand that a little bit, large crowds make me anxious too (although, from what you have said, I don't think I experience it nearly to the same extent as you do). I don't know if it is something clinically possible, but if it is, I hope you are able to get to a point where the anxiety is at a tolerable level for you and that you decide to stay at Holy Transfiguration. Since you've already been attending Holy T for over a year, I'm sure you're aware of how special and unique a parish it is. EC parishes that have a fully Eastern spiritual and liturgical life are few and far between. I obviously can't say for you if that is a benefit that outweighs the experience you have because of the HFASD, but if it's something you're able to manage without putting your health at risk, I think there is a lot of spiritual benefit to be had here that is hard to find outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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