Divine Mercy Chaplet and Offering the Divinity
#11
(02-03-2020, 07:02 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: I would clarify that I did not claim any particular person with their objections is Jansenist.  I'm just saying, I'm not one.

No, but you did put those two statements about objections to the devotion on the basis of an emphasis on mercy and Jansenism right next to each other.

If we're going to be complaining about the orthodoxy of a prayer and nitpicking on terms, then it's at least fair to point out that it is a natural conclusion for the reader to put the only two sentences in that entire paragraph together as if they were one thought.

Thank you for the clarification, nonetheless.

(02-03-2020, 07:02 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: Jesus' divinity was present in his self-offering and is present in the mass.  This is not the same as offering the Father the Father's divinity as far as I can tell, and I still don't know what it means.

And I find it a troubling phrase, too, and am not trying to defend it. If you searched the forum, you would see I find various problems with the Divine Mercy devotion.

Still, if the Sacrifice of Christ was more than simply offering Body and Blood, and Christ is substantially present with His (The) Divinity at His Crucifixion and at Mass, which is a Propitiatory Sacrifice, then I fail to see how it could be a heretical statement. I agree it is not well-defined and could be problematic, hence why I do not defend it, but I would be careful not to step beyond pointing out the ambiguity.

You previously wrote that you have only heard heretical explanations, so did not claim the phrase itself heresy. I was simply pointing out a reason we should not take the step towards doing that, because invariably someone here will, if it's not pointed out.
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#12
(02-03-2020, 08:25 PM)josh987654321 Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 06:33 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: How does it make sense to offer the divinity of the Son to the Father when the Father and Son are consubstantial in divinity? 

How does it make sense for Jesus to pray to the Father when the Father and Him are one? It's also likely in reference to the Holy Eucharist (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

That's easy.

He is praying as man.
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#13
I pray the Divine Mercy in Chaplet in Latin: "Pater Aeterne, Offero Tibi Corpus et Sanguinem, Animam et Divinitatem, Dilectissimi Filli Tui Domini Nostri Jesu Christi In Propitiatione Pro Peccatis Nostri et Totius Mundi". It's a very solid and powerful prayer in my opinion.

It's quite similar to St. Gertrude's Prayer: "Eternal Father I offer You the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus, in Union with the Holy Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, especially those who are going to die this Day [Month/Year], for all within my own Home and Family"

St. Faustina also saw many souls go to Heaven as she prayed the prayer taught to her by God, just as St. Gertrude the Great did. If you don't like St. Faustina's prayer, make sure you try to say St. Gertrude's. Prayers offering spiritual sacrifices to God, like St. Peter the Apostle teaches us to make in Sacred Scripture, in union with His Body and His Blood, are very powerful prayers. God can hardly refuse anything to them when prayed perseveringly, owing to the Infinite Merit of His Son, and the immeasurable value of the spiritual sacrifices we offer.

Another similar prayer you may like is from the Holy Wounds Devotion: Please read Catholic Tradition on the Holy Wounds Devotion and its Amazing Seventeen Promises: http://www.catholictradition.org/Christ/holy-wounds.htm 

On the large [middle] beads: "Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Wounds of our Lord Jesus Christ. To heal the wounds of our souls."

On the small [decade] beads: "My Jesus, pardon and mercy. Through the merits of Thy Holy Wounds." Approved and Non-Controversial.

I post just the first four of the Lord's Promises to that Chaplet of Mercy (distinct from the Chaplet of Divine Mercy) here, to illustrate how powerful offering the Body, the Blood, the Wounds, the Pains, the Passion, the Sorrows, or Sufferings of our Savior to the Father, and meditating on them and offering ourselves and our whole lives in union with them to God, can be and how many graces it obtains.

"1. At each word that you pronounce of the Chaplet of the Holy Wounds, I allow a drop of My Blood to fall upon the soul of a sinner.
2. Each time that you offer to My Father the merits of My Divine Wounds, you win an immense fortune.
3. Souls that will have contemplated and honored My crown of thorns on earth, will be My crown of glory in Heaven!
4. I will grant all that is asked of Me through the invocation of My Holy Wounds. You will obtain everything, because it is through the merit of My Blood, which is of infinite price. With My Wounds and My Divine Heart, everything can be obtained."
Rosary Crusade to end Abortion: https://rosarycrusadingarmytoendabortion.home.blog/

"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#14
(02-04-2020, 05:30 PM)XavierSem Wrote: It's quite similar to St. Gertrude's Prayer: "Eternal Father I offer You the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus, in Union with the Holy Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, especially those who are going to die this Day [Month/Year], for all within my own Home and Family"

St. Gertrude's prayer doesn't have the problematic ambiguity of offering the divine nature of the Godhead to the Father. 

I can understand offering the divinized humanity.  If the prayer was worded as such, I could comprehend it.

I prefer to stick to other devotions until the matter is clarified.
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#15
Well, both prayers are already fully approved by the Church. There's no obligation to say a particular prayer; but prayer merits and obtains grace for us, so it's always good to pray. Our Lord's Blood and His Divinity are One. Both are Wholly Present in the Sacrament of His Love, the Holy Eucharist, for e.g. as the Council of Trent says. The expression, Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity, seems to be from the Catechism of Trent. When we receive Holy Communion well for e.g. and offer the value of that communion to Jesus, we can say we are offering Him His own Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Similarly, just as there is spiritual communion, so also there is spiritual offerings of His Blood and His Divinity. When we say we offer to God the Blood or Merits of Jesus, what we mean is the Merits of Jesus that flow from His Divinity plead for us. Thus, we are always assured of pardon, and of receiving more graces, when we ask for all we need, through the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus.

God Bless.
Rosary Crusade to end Abortion: https://rosarycrusadingarmytoendabortion.home.blog/

"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#16
(02-04-2020, 07:28 PM)XavierSem Wrote: Well, both prayers are already fully approved by the Church.

There's at least a fair question on that.

The prayer comes from the diary which the Holy Office forbade from being circulated. Some claimed it was due to a faulty Italian translation, and that was later cleared up by a Theological Investigation.

The problem is that that investigation was urged by and then managed by John Paul II before he was Pope, who was previously on record as a devotee of the Polish nun. He appointed his own priest to investigate, but one who also was promoting the devotion. One of the first acts as Pope was the approval of the devotion. So, while, yes, it was approved by the Pope, there is not a very honest processes that led to this, so to say "It's approved" is as good as saying "It's valid" when it comes to a Mass. It's a pretty low bar to hit.

Not everything approved is good, and especially in the Modern era, approval does not automatically equal orthodoxy.

As everbecoming pointed out, the problematic phrase is precisely not in the prayer of St Gertrude, and indeed, not only does it omit the offering of the Divinity, it also more clearly connects the offering to the Mass, which is the ultimate Sacrifice of Christ.

As said before, I don't think it heretical, but everbecoming has a very good point, and in fact, your mentioning of the St Gertrude prayer makes that point stronger, seeing a certainly orthodox prayer does not make such a reference, but instead and unlike the Divine Mercy prayer, specifically ties itself to the Mass. It is worth noting that this is an important point seeing as the New Theology behind the Novus Ordo Mass is to treat it at least as more of a meal, and less of a Sacrifice, so to have a prayer that seems to say, "Father, I am offering you the Eucharist" rather than "I am offering you the Body and Blood of Christ in union with the Sacrifice of the Mass" only further suggests the novelty of this, and possible heterodoxy.
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#17
(02-04-2020, 11:06 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: As everbecoming pointed out, the problematic phrase is precisely not in the prayer of St Gertrude, and indeed, not only does it omit the offering of the Divinity, it also more clearly connects the offering to the Mass, which is the ultimate Sacrifice of Christ.

Is Christ's divinity not present in the Eucharist? Was it not present on the Cross? Jesus didn't offer his humanity on the Cross - He offered Himself, which includes body, blood, soul, and divinity. I don't see how it's any different from how we say we receive both the Body and Blood under either species, or how Our Lady is Mother of God, since she gave birth to a person, not to a "human nature". You can't separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity.

Besides, could not one object to St Gertrude's prayer on offering the Precious Blood? Our Lord offered that; she doesn't. A priest does that at Mass, but she's not a priest. How can a lay woman offer the Precious Blood to God?
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#18
(02-05-2020, 01:08 PM)Paul Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 11:06 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: As everbecoming pointed out, the problematic phrase is precisely not in the prayer of St Gertrude, and indeed, not only does it omit the offering of the Divinity, it also more clearly connects the offering to the Mass, which is the ultimate Sacrifice of Christ.

Is Christ's divinity not present in the Eucharist? Was it not present on the Cross? Jesus didn't offer his humanity on the Cross - He offered Himself, which includes body, blood, soul, and divinity. I don't see how it's any different from how we say we receive both the Body and Blood under either species, or how Our Lady is Mother of God, since she gave birth to a person, not to a "human nature". You can't separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity.

Besides, could not one object to St Gertrude's prayer on offering the Precious Blood? Our Lord offered that; she doesn't. A priest does that at Mass, but she's not a priest. How can a lay woman offer the Precious Blood to God?

Christ's Divinity, which is not essentially different from that of the Father, since there is one Godhead, is present in the Eucharist and on the Cross.

As I previously pointed out, indeed, Christ offered his whole person on the Cross, and that is a Divine Person, so that is why I wrote that I could not say that the phrase is heretical, or even erroneous. So, I already made the point you are now making as to why this offering of the divinity in the prayer is not per se wrong. It think it could be understood in an orthodox way.

My worry is that, given the now comparison with the St Gertrude prayer, which I had not previously considered, the prayer of the Divine Mercy devotion, while not unorthodox, is ambiguous and pushes the same change in the notion of Our Lord's Sacrifice that one finds in the Novus Ordo Missæ, which the proponents of the Divine Mercy devotion, like John Paul II, were the ones to push.

Indeed, St Gertrude and most of those who say her prayer are not ordained priests, but there has always in the spiritual authors been an analogical "priesthood" by Baptism in which the faithful can offer their Mass, and the fruits of that Mass. That is well-establish, and has a long orthodox history. The idea of offering the Eucharist (the effect) and not the Sacrifice of Christ (the cause), which are not the same thing, is a novel idea.
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#19
I agree with Jacafamala and Josh. The Divine Mercy Prayer is extremely powerful for the dying. St. Maria Faustina saw many souls snatched from hell as she prayed it throughout the day, especially during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In another incident, St. Faustina saw an Angel coming to strike humanity in punishment for our sins and those of the whole world. By her own means, she was powerless to prevent it. That's when she was interiorly taught this prayer by God Himself, "Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in Atonement for our sins and for those of the whole world", and immediately the Angel could not strike. It's a powerful prayer, it prevents chastisements, it snatches souls from hell; remember another 20th Century Apparition that we all know to have been a great Heavenly Intervention from God - Our Lady of Fatima and Devotion to Her Immaculate Heart. Our Lady often told us souls go to hell because no one prays for them; that by prayer and sacrifice for them, especially at the hour of death, we can merit for them the grace of conversion and contrition, and so snatch them from going to hell. Next, She asked us to pray "O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy Mercy" and that's what the Divine Mercy prayer also does; saves the souls from the fires of hell, who are in most need of God's Divine Mercy, i.e. souls near death. Our Lord told St. Faustina concerning such souls, "They need My Mercy the most, yet have it the least. So pray and sacrifice much for them".

To the objection that the Divine Mercy Prayers do not emphasize reparation enough, or do not correctly enough balance Divine Mercy and Divine Justice (we all pray for Mercy, right? We say, Lord have Mercy. Christ have Mercy. Lord have Mercy. We do not say, "O Lord, Deign to have Justice upon me"; That would be terrible for us!), just see if you still think so after seeing what the Lord said about the Holy Souls, "Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/devotio...-day-13374 Isn't that a perfect balance between Mercy and Justice?

Magister Wrote:There's at least a fair question on that.


Hi Magister. According to Wikipedia, Millions of Catholics already practiced Divine Mercy Devotion by the 40s and 50s: "Before her death Faustina predicted that "there will be a war, a terrible, terrible war" and asked the nuns to pray for Poland. In 1939, a year after Faustina's death when Archbishop Jałbrzykowski noticed that her predictions about the war had taken place, he allowed public access to the Divine Mercy image which resulted in large crowds that led to the spread of the Divine Mercy devotion.[34] The Divine Mercy devotion became a source of strength and inspiration for many people in Poland. By 1941 the devotion had reached the United States and millions of copies of Divine Mercy prayer cards were printed and distributed worldwide.[33] ... On 24 June 1956, Pope Pius XII blessed an Image of the Divine Mercy in Rome, the only one blessed by a Pope before the Second Vatican Council.[37] In 1955, under Pope Pius XII, the Bishop of Gorzów founded a religious order called the Congregation of the Most Holy Lord Jesus Christ, Merciful Redeemer, to spread devotion to the Divine Mercy.[38][39] Under both Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII, writings on devotion to the Divine Mercy were given imprimaturs by many bishops, making it an approved devotion.[40][41][42][43] Cardinals Adam Stefan Sapieha and August Hlond were among those who gave their approval.[44][45] During the papacy of Pope Pius XII, Vatican Radio broadcast several times about the Divine Mercy.[46]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska

So, this is pre-Vatican II. In 1959, because of a temporary translation issue, it came under scrutiny; but it subsequently passed that. 

As to the objection - just as we say the Blood is always present with the Body by concomitance, Magister, (and thus the whole Christ is present under both kinds in Holy Communion), isn't it true theologically speaking that the Divinity and Soul of Christ are also always present with His Body and His Blood? So, for e.g. when the Holy Wounds are offered to the Father, as in that other Chaplet, is not the Blood of Jesus always offered together with them? That's what Our Lord Himself said, His Blood is of Infinite Price, thus we will obtain everything by offering His Wounds to the Father, to plead on our behalf. 

Another prayer from a Saintly Sponsa Christi, this time St. Bridget, many many centuries ago, very much like the Divine Mercy Prayer. 

"Eternal Father, accept as worthy, for the needs of the Holy Church and as atonement for the sins of all Mankind, the Precious Blood and Water which poured forth from the Wound of Jesus' Divine Heart. Be gracious and merciful toward us.

Blood of Christ, the last precious content of His Holy Heart, wash me of all my and others' guilt of sin!

Water from the Side of Christ, wash me clean of all punishments for sin and extinguish the flames of Purgatory for me and for all the Poor Souls. Amen" https://www.theworkofgod.org/Devotns/bri...2years.htm

Isn't this prayer very similar, Magister? There's a prayer in my Missal, which may be familar to others here also, that goes "Eternal Father, I unite myself with the intentions and affections of Our Lady of Sorrows on Calvary, and I offer to Thee the Sacrifice which Thy Beloved Son made of Himself on the Cross and which He now renews on this holy Altar. I offer it in the name of all mankind, with the Masses which are now being offered, and all those which will be offered throughout the world this day ... To appease Thy Justice, aroused against us by so many sins, and to make satisfaction for them. To implore Grace and Mercy for myself, for Thy Holy Church, for all afflicted and sorrowing, for poor sinners, for those whom I have promised prayers, for all the world, and for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Amen"

God Bless.
Rosary Crusade to end Abortion: https://rosarycrusadingarmytoendabortion.home.blog/

"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#20
(02-05-2020, 03:44 PM)XavierSem Wrote: According to Wikipedia, Millions of Catholics already practiced Divine Mercy Devotion by the 40s and 50s ... By 1941 the devotion had reached the United States and millions of copies of Divine Mercy prayer cards were printed and distributed worldwide.

Okay. So? That does not necessarily make the chaplet prayer or the diary orthodox. Millions of people have accepted the false apparitions of Medjugorje. That the devotion spread and even was encouraged by a bishop does not immediately make it good. That is why when the issue arose later the Holy See could forbid the circulation of the diary or image. That also does not make it necessarily bad, just to say that this is not an argument of numbers. It's a theological argument.

(02-05-2020, 03:44 PM)XavierSem Wrote: On 24 June 1956, Pope Pius XII blessed an Image of the Divine Mercy in Rome, the only one blessed by a Pope before the Second Vatican Council.

Again, red herring for the question of the orthodoxy of the prayer, and again, not necessarily a sign of orthodoxy. The Popes in the modern era often bless images that are presented to them by pilgrims, without intending any endorsement. One sees regularly Popes among crowds being presented religious objects to bless, and they do so without analyzing or questioning.

The Valtorta sycophants often claim a "Supreme Papal Imprimatur" for having had some books allegedly presented to Pius XII in a chance meeting blessed by him.


(02-05-2020, 03:44 PM)XavierSem Wrote: So, this is pre-Vatican II. In 1959, because of a temporary translation issue, it came under scrutiny; but it subsequently passed that. 

As I pointed out, there is a claimed translation issue. Allegedly there was a problem with the Italian version of the diary that provoked the Holy Office to forbit it and the promotion of the devotion and circulation of the image. John XXIII agreed (as he was the Prefect of the Holy Office ex officio still at that time).

It was John Paul II, as a bishop who proposed to solve the problems by the theological study, but that study was not honestly and critically done. It was a study by devotees about how the devotion was acceptable. There was no critical voices.

Again, it is an alleged translation issue, because we do not know the actual issue, nor do we know if it existed in other versions, so while those who promote the devotion say it is a translation issue, that is not well-established by comparing the original and Italian. In fact, if that were the issue, it would be unlikely that a full theological study would be necessary. Showing the mistranslation should have been enough, yet it took nearly 20 years and a fan of the devotion to become Pope for the issues to be worked out.

(02-05-2020, 03:44 PM)XavierSem Wrote: As to the objection - just as we say the Blood is always present with the Body by concomitance, Magister, (and thus the whole Christ is present under both kinds in Holy Communion), isn't it true theologically speaking that the Divinity and Soul of Christ are also always present with His Body and His Blood? So, for e.g. when the Holy Wounds are offered to the Father, as in that other Chaplet, is not the Blood of Jesus always offered together with them? That's what Our Lord Himself said, His Blood is of Infinite Price, thus we will obtain everything by offering His Wounds to the Father, to plead on our behalf. 

Another prayer from a Saintly Sponsa Christi, this time St. Bridget, many many centuries ago, very much like the Divine Mercy Prayer. 

"Eternal Father, accept as worthy, for the needs of the Holy Church and as atonement for the sins of all Mankind, the Precious Blood and Water which poured forth from the Wound of Jesus' Divine Heart. Be gracious and merciful toward us.

Blood of Christ, the last precious content of His Holy Heart, wash me of all my and others' guilt of sin!

Water from the Side of Christ, wash me clean of all punishments for sin and extinguish the flames of Purgatory for me and for all the Poor Souls. Amen" https://www.theworkofgod.org/Devotns/bri...2years.htm

Isn't this prayer very similar, Magister? There's a prayer in my Missal, which may be familar to others here also, that goes "Eternal Father, I unite myself with the intentions and affections of Our Lady of Sorrows on Calvary, and I offer to Thee the Sacrifice which Thy Beloved Son made of Himself on the Cross and which He now renews on this holy Altar. I offer it in the name of all mankind, with the Masses which are now being offered, and all those which will be offered throughout the world this day ... To appease Thy Justice, aroused against us by so many sins, and to make satisfaction for them. To implore Grace and Mercy for myself, for Thy Holy Church, for all afflicted and sorrowing, for poor sinners, for those whom I have promised prayers, for all the world, and for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Amen"

God Bless.

The prayer is similar, yes, but you keep missing the issue.

The issue is not about the Eucharist containing both Body and Blood, nor about these being offered, but about the new and unique statement of offering the Divinity of Christ to the Father. This does not occur in these other prayers, and pointing out the similarities but without showing another prayer which offers the Divinity of Christ, only served to highlight that difference, making it seem even more unique, and to accord with the New Theology of the Mass.

Traditional Catholic theology from Trent teaches that the Mass is essentially the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody manner, that is Sacramentally, and so essentially a propitiatory Sacrifice. At this Sacrifice the Eucharist is confected, and as a fruit of this Sacrifice, but in no way necessary, one may receive Communion, which is a kind of Sacramental meal. So the Mass is essentially a Sacrifice, and only accidentally and analogically a meal in a very remote secondary sense.

The New Theology teaches that the Mass is essentially a representation of the Last Supper, not the Crucifixion and Death of Christ and so essentially a meal, and only secondarily and metaphorically a Sacrifice. This is why the original 1969 General Instruction of the Roman Missal, proposes an heretical definition of the Mass, denying by omission the Sacrificial nature of the Mass, prompting, at the outcry of some, the recall of these Missals and its revision. In this system, it is the Eucharist which is the real Sacrifice. Christ gave us His Body and Blood to eat and drink, and so offered this gift to us of Himself. The problem is that this is not a Sacrifice, because Sacrifice is offered only to God.

That is why I say there is a striking difference between offering to the Father "the Body, Blood, soul and Divinity" of Christ. This is, by definition to say, "I offer the Eucharist". The other prayers say I offer the Blood, or the Body, or the Wounds, or the Sufferings of Christ, all directly connected to the Passion, and so directly connected to the Sacrifice of Christ, and the essence of the Mass. The Eucharist is the effect and fruit of the Mass, and so theologically and philosophically this confuses cause and effect.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that everbecoming was onto something here, and there is a deeper problem that is not itself heretical, but certainly is tied to the confusion and ambiguity one sees in this New Theology and the Second Vatican Council.
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