Number of saved
#11
(02-09-2020, 06:55 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: I have been influenced by David Bentley Hart,

You might want to read this refutation of Hart, solidly based on Scripture: What Jesus Did Not Say About Hell
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
Reply
#12
(02-09-2020, 07:06 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-09-2020, 06:55 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: I have been influenced by David Bentley Hart,

You might want to read this refutation of Hart, solidly based on Scripture: What Jesus Did Not Say About Hell

I will read it.  But that is not to say that anything will extinguish my hope.
Reply
#13
This whole universal salvation belief, that includes the unbaptized, spits in the face of the many missionary martyrs, who I might add, gave their lives to save souls with the belief that many would go to hell if they were not brought the Catholic faith.

And labeling those who truly believe that many go to hell "rigorists" does not change the sorry truth of the matter.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
[-] The following 3 users Like Augustinian's post:
  • jovan66102, MagisterMusicae, MiserereMeiDeus
Reply
#14
(02-09-2020, 07:46 PM)Augustinian Wrote: This whole universal salvation belief, that includes the unbaptized, spits in the face of the many missionary martyrs, who I might add, gave their lives to save souls with the belief that many would go to hell if they were not brought the Catholic faith.

And labeling those who truly believe that many go to hell "rigorists" does not change the sorry truth of the matter.

Exactly! Why bother if the vast majority of humanity are going to be saved anyway? 'Dare we hope' is just a camouflage for the heresy of Doctrinal Universalism.

From the Servant of God, John Hardon's 'Modern Catholic Dictionary:

Quote:UNIVERSALISM, DOCTRINAL. The theory that hell is essentially a kind of purgatory in which sins are expiated, so that eventually everyone will be saved. Also called apokatastasis, it was condemned by the church in A.D. 543, against the Origenists, who claimed that "the punishment of devils and wicked men is temporary and will eventually cease, that is to say, that devils or the ungodly will be completely restored to their original state" (Denzinger 411).
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
Reply
#15
(02-09-2020, 07:46 PM)Augustinian Wrote: This whole universal salvation belief, that includes the unbaptized, spits in the face of the many missionary martyrs, who I might add, gave their lives to save souls with the belief that many would go to hell if they were not brought the Catholic faith.

And labeling those who truly believe that many go to hell "rigorists" does not change the sorry truth of the matter.

Just for the record, I reject universal salvation, even Barron's "conditional universalism" or whatever he might call it.  I also believe that most will probably end up in Hell.  I also accept Limbo.  And so on.  My position, insofar as I can tell, would be the rigorist position, assuming that's the correct term.  I only got on this thread by trying to answer the OP's question, then wonder myself what the Church's definitive teaching is.  MagisterMusicae's answer is what I suspected to be the case.  That said, that does not I mean I spit in the face of the missionary martyrs and believe in some nonsense like universalism or Rahner's "anonymous Christians".
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Reply
#16
(02-09-2020, 06:55 PM)everbecoming2007 Wrote: I have been influenced by David Bentley Hart, so in my acts of contrition I pray the Our Fatima prayer, earnestly praying the Lord to save us all.

...save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls into heaven, especially those who are in most need of thy mercy!

I truly pray and hope for universal salvation.  I know this makes me odd to some.  But it is my true hope.
Be very, very careful with Hart, he's got marcionite views of the old testament and refuses to admit that both Origen (whose Christology is downright false)  and universal salvation were condemned by an Ecumenical Council.  He may have good intentions but the type of word games he's playing with theology put him soundly into the category of heterodox. He's a modern Arius,Origen or Nestorius in his odd views on things.  

That being said,  there's no reason not to pray for God's mercy on all,  even though we know that hell is real and that people go there.  In the ninth hour prayer in the Byzantine Service Books everyday we pray that of the two thieves the one went to perdition, the other was saved.  That has always given me pause.  

Just be very very careful with DBH, he is a smart dude but he's got some seriously wacked out theological opinions on stuff.
Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon
[-] The following 2 users Like formerbuddhist's post:
  • Augustinian, jovan66102
Reply
#17
I suppose the 'pragmatical' and simple summation of how many people go to hell would be this:

7.8 Billion people in the world as of 8/2019.

Number of Catholics worldwide, est. @ 1.2 Billion.

Number of Eastern Orthodox in the world approx. 360 Million.

Add in Byzantine, Maronite and other Rites, approx. 120 Million.

So, total that could arguably be saved under the blanket of being part of the One True Church, which one must belong to to be saved and perhaps throw in a few, say 5 Million out of 800 million of Protestants that have somehow earned salvation, just a rough guesstimate, as a starting point, we have this:

If all of these folks, which it is obvious that not all would fall into this category, were saved and went to heaven, or perhaps even Purgatory, that would leave 1.685 Billion people saved out of the 7.8 Billion, on a good day.

Lets see, at best, 1.685 to 7.8 or odds of 1:4.62 or about 6.11 Billion people lost to the devil, if all the earth were wiped out at once, right now and that's under ideal circumstances. Granted, there is a lot of fudge factor included in this very rough estimate, but even so, since we all know that many of those in the 'saved' column could also be lost, it looks like a whole lot of people headed to hell, and these numbers, translated into daily deaths over the years, still make loads of souls lost.

It must be REALLY crowded down there in Hell! :(
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
[-] The following 1 user Likes Zedta's post:
  • Augustinian
Reply
#18
(02-09-2020, 02:55 PM)Florus Wrote: This topic is a big ol can o worms that I think we should be hesitant getting into...

I think you were quite right about that.  I find it sad that modernists have so ruined things that a Catholic can't even ask the OP's question without accusations of heresy being thrown around.  I can't really blame folks for that kind of response, though.  Modernism ruins everything it touches.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
[-] The following 3 users Like SeekerofChrist's post:
  • Augustinian, jovan66102, Zedta
Reply
#19
Just to add to my post above. Here are a few factors to consider that will, in very near future, if not already, certainly make the number of lost souls increase dramatically and decisively as well:

Michael H. Brown Wrote:Go here for sign up to get access to his "Special Reports" (at a very nominal fee) that this was excerpted from.





What did Saint John Paul II say?

[Image: 578f623b42f736edd69bf089a32a97cc.jpg]

During a visit to New York City when he was still a cardinal (1976): “We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel. This confrontation lies within the plans of divine Providence; it is a trial which the whole Church, and the Polish Church in particular, must take up. It is a trial of not only our nation and the Church, but, in a sense, a test of 2,000 years of culture and Christian civilization…”

In 1957, meanwhile, Sister Lucia told an interviewing priest who asked about this topic, “Father, the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle against the Blessed Virgin. And the devil knows what it is that most offends God and which in a short space of time will gain for him the greatest number of souls. Thus, the devil does everything to overcome souls consecrated to God, because in this way the devil will succeed in leaving the souls of the faithful abandoned by their leaders, thereby the more easily will he seize them. That which afflicts the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus is the fall of religious and priestly souls. The devil knows that religious and priests who fall away from their beautiful vocation drag numerous souls to hell[.] …”

Unbeknownst to most, this was in the midst — the very decade — that sexual abuse by clerics and loss of vocations began skyrocketing.

A “decisive battle.” Do we not see that all around us? Was it not also foreseen at Akita, Japan, in 1973 when the dear Blessed Mother told Sister Agnes Sasagawa “the work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, and bishops against other bishops,” and at LaSalette, France — in 1846 — when the great Virgin told seer Melanie Calvat that “Lucifer together with a large number of demons will be unloosed from hell; they will put an end to faith little by little, even in those dedicated to God. They will blind them in such a way, that, unless they are blessed with a special grace, these people will take on the spirit of these angels of hell; several religious institutions will lose all faith and will lose many souls”?

“Evil books will be abundant on earth and the spirits of darkness will spread everywhere a universal slackening of all that concerns the service of God. They will have great power over Nature: there will be churches built to serve these spirits. People will be transported from one place to another by these evil spirits, even priests, for they will not have been guided by the good spirit of the Gospel which is a spirit of humility, charity, and zeal for the glory of God. On occasions, the dead and the righteous will be brought back to life. (That is to say that these dead will take on the form of righteous souls which had lived on earth, in order to lead men further astray; these so-called resurrected dead, who will be nothing but the devil in this form, will preach another Gospel contrary to that of the true Christ Jesus, denying the existence of Heaven; that is also to say, the souls of the damned. All these souls will appear as if fixed to their bodies). Everywhere there will be extraordinary wonders.”

It could very well get much worse than my poor guesstimate, most sadly.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
Reply
#20
(02-09-2020, 08:25 PM)Zedta Wrote: Number of Catholics worldwide, est. @ 1.2 Billion.

Number of Eastern Orthodox in the world approx. 360 Million.

Add in Byzantine, Maronite and other Rites, approx. 120 Million.

So, total that could arguably be saved under the blanket of being part of the One True Church, which one must belong to to be saved and perhaps throw in a few, say 5 Million out of 800 million of Protestants that have somehow earned salvation, just a rough guesstimate, as a starting point, we have this:

The Orthodox are not part of the Church. Subjectively, some might be; objectively, they're heretics and schismatics.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Paul's post:
  • Zedta
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)