Number of saved
#21
(02-09-2020, 10:17 PM)Paul Wrote:
(02-09-2020, 08:25 PM)Zedta Wrote: Number of Catholics worldwide, est. @ 1.2 Billion.

Number of Eastern Orthodox in the world approx. 360 Million.

Add in Byzantine, Maronite and other Rites, approx. 120 Million.

So, total that could arguably be saved under the blanket of being part of the One True Church, which one must belong to to be saved and perhaps throw in a few, say 5 Million out of 800 million of Protestants that have somehow earned salvation, just a rough guesstimate, as a starting point, we have this:

The Orthodox are not part of the Church. Subjectively, some might be; objectively, they're heretics and schismatics.
I see your point, but I tend to lean to the most likely of those to be saved and even these you point out, have a much more likelyhood than the average Protestant at achieving salvation. So I included them, giving them the benefit of the doubt, as it were.

BTW: Didn't a recent Pope Benedict visit to the Eastern Orthodox prelate, refer to him as "His brother Andrew", as in the brother of Peter who went there to establish a 'Catholic' Church much as his brother Peter did in Rome?

Just sayin'.  After all, I WAS brushing with a rather broad brush and you're coming in and getting picky. In the end, the numbers are staggering, even without the Eastern Ortodox figured in or out.

The doubt is in their favor on the heretical schismatics idea, which I am in great doubt of its validity.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
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You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
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#22
(02-09-2020, 10:28 PM)Zedta Wrote: The doubt is in their favor on the heretical schismatics idea, which I am in great doubt of its validity.

On what basis? The two are defined in Canon Law:
Quote:Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

They absolutely refuse to accept Pastor Aeternus:

Quote:9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

Making them heretics.

And it is a matter of historical record that, at least since 1054, they have been in a state of 'refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him', making them schismatics.

In fact they are textbook examples of both heresy and schism.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
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#23
(02-09-2020, 10:51 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-09-2020, 10:28 PM)Zedta Wrote: The doubt is in their favor on the heretical schismatics idea, which I am in great doubt of its validity.

On what basis? The two are defined in Canon Law:
Quote:Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

They absolutely refuse to accept Pastor Aeternus:

Quote:9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

Making them heretics.

And it is a matter of historical record that, at least since 1054, they have been in a state of 'refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him', making them schismatics.

In fact they are textbook examples of both heresy and schism.
Your point is taken, but you misread my intent of skepticism: as to being 'saved'. I do not doubt their breakaway from the Roman Church, but I see the light, I suppose as Pope Benedict did, in 'his brother Andrew' and how there was a bond very early on in the known Church, one began by Peter and one by his brother Andrew. Both centered on Jesus and an olive branch, as it were, was handed out between them. I maintain, there is still a link and hope for amends.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
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#24
(02-09-2020, 11:19 PM)Zedta Wrote: Your point is taken, but you misread my intent of skepticism: as to being 'saved'. I do not doubt their breakaway from the Roman Church, but I see the light, I suppose as Pope Benedict did, in 'his brother Andrew' and how there was a bond very early on in the known Church, one began by Peter and one by his brother Andrew. Both centered on Jesus and an olive branch, as it were, was handed out between them. I maintain, there is still a link and hope for amends.

You said,

Quote:7.8 Billion people in the world as of 8/2019.


Number of Catholics worldwide, est. @ 1.2 Billion.

Number of Eastern Orthodox in the world approx. 360 Million.

Add in Byzantine, Maronite and other Rites, approx. 120 Million.

So, total that could arguably be saved under the blanket of being part of the One True Church

And, as I just pointed out they are textbook examples of heretics and schismatics who, by definition, are not part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.

In fact, if they are included, it makes a total mockery of the 'One' in the Marks (or Notes) of the Church given that they are not even 'One' amongst themselves, riven by schism and lack of authority. As the Servant of God John Hardon says in his Modern Catholic Dictionary,

Quote:MARKS OF THE CHURCH. The four essential notes that characterize the Church of Christ, first fully enumerated in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed; one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic. Since the Eastern Schism and the Protestant Reformation they have become means of identifying the true Church among the rival claimants in Christianity. Some writers add other notes besides the traditional four, e.g., St. Robert Bellarmine with a total of fifteen, including the mark of persecution.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#25
I still hold out a token of hope in the reparation of the East and Roman Churches. I saw Pope Benedict's advances in that regard as a positive move. Because of this, and as I stated "I was using a broad brush", they certainly have more likelyhoof of salvation than the average Protestant.

So save the comment "arguably...Under the blanket of the One True Church", they still fall, in my opinion, in the most likely saved group.

But also, I stipulated the whole of my computation is a gross approximation and speculation. So all your finger-pointing to Church dogma et al, is really rather pointless, isn't it, except for the attention it may draw to yourself?

You are becoming an outright MM acolyte!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
Reply
#26
(02-09-2020, 11:50 PM)Zedta Wrote: I still hold out a token of hope in the reparation of the East and Roman Churches. I saw Pope Benedict's advances in that regard as a positive move. Because of this, and as I stated "I was using a broad brush", they certainly have more likelyhoof of salvation than the average Protestant.

So save the comment "arguably...Under the blanket of the One True Church", they still fall, in my opinion, in the most likely saved group.

But also, I stipulated the whole of my computation is a gross approximation and speculation. So all your finger-pointing to Church dogma et al, is really rather pointless, isn't it, except for the attention it may draw to yourself?

You are becoming an outright MM acolyte!

I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by that?
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#27
(02-10-2020, 12:00 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(02-09-2020, 11:50 PM)Zedta Wrote: You are becoming an outright MM acolyte!

I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by that?
I doubt your sorry and the fact you showed yourself so quickly only proves my point.
Go away kid you bother me!
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
Reply
#28
(02-09-2020, 11:50 PM)Zedta Wrote: I still hold out a token of hope in the reparation of the East and Roman Churches. I saw Pope Benedict's advances in that regard as a positive move. Because of this, and as I stated "I was using a broad brush", they certainly have more likelyhoof of salvation than the average Protestant.

So save the comment "arguably...Under the blanket of the One True Church", they still fall, in my opinion, in the most likely saved group.

But also, I stipulated the whole of my computation is a gross approximation and speculation. So all your finger-pointing to Church dogma et al, is really rather pointless, isn't it, except for the attention it may draw to yourself?

You are becoming an outright MM acolyte!

I'm sorry to step on your sore toe. You made a statement that was demonstrably false and I pointed out its falsity. I'm not sure how that makes me an 'MM acolyte'. It reinforces my reputation as the Tank's resident nit-picker, however.

And, I too, hope for the return of the Orthodox to the Unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, but until they do, I don't hold them out as part of the 'One, True Church'.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#29
(02-10-2020, 12:30 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(02-09-2020, 11:50 PM)Zedta Wrote: I still hold out a token of hope in the reparation of the East and Roman Churches. I saw Pope Benedict's advances in that regard as a positive move. Because of this, and as I stated "I was using a broad brush", they certainly have more likelyhoof of salvation than the average Protestant.

So save the comment "arguably...Under the blanket of the One True Church", they still fall, in my opinion, in the most likely saved group.

But also, I stipulated the whole of my computation is a gross approximation and speculation. So all your finger-pointing to Church dogma et al, is really rather pointless, isn't it, except for the attention it may draw to yourself?

You are becoming an outright MM acolyte!

I'm sorry to step on your sore toe. You made a statement that was demonstrably false and I pointed out its falsity. I'm not sure how that makes me an 'MM acolyte'. It reinforces my reputation as the Tank's resident nit-picker, however.

And, I too, hope for the return of the Orthodox to the Unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, but until they do, I don't hold them out as part of the 'One, True Church'.
Accepted, but still my whole post was huge vast, sarcastic even, take on the actual numbers of those who are nonCatholic in the world. It was how you pounced on a detail in a schoolyard worth of generality. It seemed much over stated and you do seem to be very MM-like in recent times, my friend. Hence the acolyte reference, as in the second definition of the same.

We do go back a long time together, I'd have thought it more apropos that you would have sent me a PM rather than a public lambasting. I did not expect it from you.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
George Carlin

“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
George Orwell
Reply
#30
(02-10-2020, 01:02 AM)Zedta Wrote: We do go back a long time together, I'd have thought it more apropos that you would have sent me a PM rather than a public lambasting. I did not expect it from you.

And I'm sorry for doing it. It was uncalled for.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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