To Catholic Creationist
#11
(03-18-2020, 05:48 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 04:56 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: This question is for Catholics who hold to the traditional 6-day creation.

This is not "the traditional" view. There is not a "traditional" viewpoint, since the Fathers of the Church themselves were widely split on how to interpret the Genesis account.

(03-18-2020, 04:56 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: I am a creationist and to me it is so obvious that the bible teaches it, the vast majority of Christians believed it, and that evolution is harmful to the church.

You're creating a false dichotomy. The contradictory notion to a 168-hour creation is not Darwinian Evolution.

It is a non-168-hour account. One could hold that kind of account and reject Darwinian Evolution.

Also, we don't get to decide what the Bible teaches.

The Church tells us what it teaches, and she does not say that a 168-hour account is what the Bible necessarily teaches, in fact. She says that this is one of several possibilities.

(03-18-2020, 04:56 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: To me, I see evolution as the leading cause of people leaving the Church [as a whole not just catholic] it is why I left the catholic church as a youth and why I am conservative protestant today.

Personal opinion here : I don't think it has much to do with people leaving the Church, given the absolute disaster since Vatican II.

Perhaps part of the problem. I'd say if it is the bigger issue is the lack of adequate Catholic Catechesis on the subject, and too much of the Protestant Biblicism entering Catholic thinking due to the lack of Catechesis, which give simple people the impression that there is this false dichotomy between Faith and Science. So they choose Science.

Faith and Science (properly done) are really just tools to the same Truth. They are not opposed unless people make part of "Faith" what is not, or make of "Science" what is not.

For instance, to insist that a 168-hour Genesis account is part of the Faith is wrong, and will lead souls away from God. To insist that Science can prove that all life came from some primordial soul and so there is not God is also wrong (because not a scientifically testable hypothesis), so it is a (false) religious doctrine, and will lead souls away. Both will lead souls away from God.

(03-18-2020, 04:56 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: Given the stance taken in the CCC on creation evolution and the age of the earth. How can I go against what I think is harmful anti-God philosophy and become a Catholic? this is my biggest stumbling block and I am asking for a thoughtful response. The Catholic Church's refusal to take a stand against the greatest enemy of our day. I now a response would be to trust the church and not yourself on interpretations.  But when it is so clear and so harmful to accept [evolution] how can I go against it? Should I also trust Islam or the koran and what it says even when it is so wrong on so many subjects? I will be held accountable to God so I cant join anything I think is so harmful to him and causes many like myself to reject him. 

I'd say the only thing you can do is abandon your own personal interpretation of Scripture and trust the Church that Christ founded, which can be demonstrate to be the True Church, whereas no Protestant sect can be shown to be anything like the early Church, and all broke from the Catholic Church.

I am not saying that you have to accept an evolutionary account, or even abandon your interpretation. I am saying you need to abandon holding it because you think this, and instead agree to hold it because the Church allows you to do so. To submit your judgement to the Church's.

This is the essence of being Catholic, and the Catholic Faith. Faith is the acceptance of the Truth of a thing on the authority of God or the authority he delegated, namely the Church.

In changing why you accept that account of Genesis, you would then also have to accept that the Church allows other interpretations, because another reading could be right. As said, the Fathers held different interpretations. Some are 168-hour, some are not. Thus the Church does not demand one or the other, but allows reasonable freedom.


Well, that is just not so but neither is it the topic of the thread and i have given sources to show it on my threads on evolution.  I would say the numbers and those who leave the church [catholic or not] would agree with me over your opinions on the matter. To claim the bible does not teach creation is like Muslims who try and twist the bible to say Jesus was not divine or did not come back from the dead. 

But how could God church be so against the bible? how could it lead people away from God and teach doctrine so contrary to scripture? why not join the mormons, Jw's and Muslims in claims to infallibility and throw my mind out the window? I would gladly submit to the catholic church if it were the true church, yet how can it be given its stance on evolution? God will hold me accountable, how do I go against common sense and his word. Muslims tell me the Koran is gods word, do I submit to them and just go along with it? I dont say this to argue but to understand.


I think my main issue is why will the church not take a stance against what is causing so many to leave Christ and the church?
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#12
(03-18-2020, 06:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 06:13 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: I guess my question then is how can the infallible church not take a stance on an issue so vital to salvation and leading people astray? why is it not the leading defender of truth on this issue?

Because if there is not the dogma of the Faith or Morals involved, the Church cannot speak infallibly on a subject.

And, as I suggested, it is not a black-and-white issue, even among the Fathers of the Church.

The Church has, many times, clearly condemned what is against the Faith with regards to evolution and other false worldviews, but when the matters don't touch on this, she does not get involved.

In short, the issue may not be "so vital to salvation and leading people astray" as you think it is.


How is a false doctrine that leads people from faith not an issue of faith or morals? undermining trust in the bible and church causes to leave people astray. It is the number one cause today. I would say that is vital.
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#13
(03-18-2020, 06:13 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 05:42 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 05:20 PM)19405 Wrote: My wife is a YEC Catholic.

There are people on here who are.

Check out the Kolbe Center and the encyclical Humani Generis.

The CCC neither endorses nor condemns biological macroevolution.

As much as I like some of the things the Kolbe center puts out, be careful with throwing that name around, it's like blood in the water for some users here.

As for the OP,
I'm a YEC Catholic. And so were the Scholastics (Aquinas was a 6-day creationist, regardless of what Neo-Thomists want to debate), and so were the Church Fathers. It is not a Fundie-christian position to take, but the traditional Catholic cosmological worldview.

As for the CCC; keep in mind that it is a compendium of the current "trends" of Catholic teaching, not a Magisterial document in-and-of itself. The Magisterium teaches that the father is the "king" or head of the household, but that teaching is strangely absent from the modern Catechism. Just because there is a footnote that states the Church "accepts" evolutionary theory, does not mean that the Magisterium has defined it as Church teaching. Basing your belief in the Church established by Jesus Christ through the Apostles on a Catechism that changes every few years is no grounds for your belief in Catholic Truth.

Evolution is a metaphysical worldview pushed by anti-Christian materialists and naturalists to undermine God's authority over creation. I personally reject theistic evolution because it is too quick to dismiss revelation to fit the modern worldview of a macroevolution, and it gives way to pantheism rather than true theism because it reduces everything to a sort of "prime matter" that can simply be retooled and refit into anything. It rejects forms and essences through its proposition of the change of one kind of creature into another, completely foreign, kind of creature.
There's also the problem of the less perfect creature developing into the more perfect creature, which is philosophically incoherent, because you can't give what you don't have; so an eyeless fish developing eyes over millions of years due to mutations (which are proven to have detrimental effects on populations, rather than beneficial) goes against the principle of sufficient reason, which requires that for an effect to be present it must be contained within its cause. I could incoherently ramble on and on.


In short, adhering to a YEC cosmology through the rejection of evolution is a perfectly Catholic position. Humani Generis may have opened the gates to Catholic consideration of the evolutionary hypotheses and findings, but it was in no way an official acceptance of evolution as truth. Unfortunately, it has been misconstrued as such, given that many Catholics not only adhere to evolutionary theory, but seem to vilify those who reject it as the nonsense that it is.


Ok I like what you are saying and I know it is not dogma. But I guess my question then is how can the infallible church not take a stance on an issue so vital to salvation and leading people astray? why is it not the leading defender of truth on this issue?

"How could the Church not define X if X is true and important?"
Whether the Church weighs in on some contemporary question you find important, is a very idiosyncratic way to discern whether Our Lord founded the Church, and whether the Church's claims are true. Those are the relevant questions.

The CCC does NOT teach about whether standard Darwinian theory is right or wrong. You can reconcile your belief that it's wrong fairly easily with a document that doesn't say whether it is wrong or right.
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#14
It's almost like you're imagining that if the Church has infallible offices, then any time the pope wants, he can tap into his bucket of infallible statements and pull one out; and the most important ones are near the top of the bucket.

Needless to say, that isn't how a negative charism (such as infallibility) works
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#15
Quote:To claim the bible does not teach creation is like Muslims who try and twist the bible to say Jesus was not divine or did not come back from the dead.
 

No one thinks the Catholic Church doesn't "teach creation"; we refer to God as "Creator" for a reason. It's right in the Creed: "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible." How He did it is what people debate.

"Creationism" =/= "6 modern earth days." One can be "a creationist" (someone who thinks God is the Creator) and also not think God created the Heavens and the earth in 144 hours. Or one can be a creationist and think He did do it in 144 hours. One can be Catholic and believe either. One can't be Catholic and not think of God as the Creator.
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#16
(03-18-2020, 06:32 PM)19405 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 06:13 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 05:42 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 05:20 PM)19405 Wrote: My wife is a YEC Catholic.

There are people on here who are.

Check out the Kolbe Center and the encyclical Humani Generis.

The CCC neither endorses nor condemns biological macroevolution.

As much as I like some of the things the Kolbe center puts out, be careful with throwing that name around, it's like blood in the water for some users here.

As for the OP,
I'm a YEC Catholic. And so were the Scholastics (Aquinas was a 6-day creationist, regardless of what Neo-Thomists want to debate), and so were the Church Fathers. It is not a Fundie-christian position to take, but the traditional Catholic cosmological worldview.

As for the CCC; keep in mind that it is a compendium of the current "trends" of Catholic teaching, not a Magisterial document in-and-of itself. The Magisterium teaches that the father is the "king" or head of the household, but that teaching is strangely absent from the modern Catechism. Just because there is a footnote that states the Church "accepts" evolutionary theory, does not mean that the Magisterium has defined it as Church teaching. Basing your belief in the Church established by Jesus Christ through the Apostles on a Catechism that changes every few years is no grounds for your belief in Catholic Truth.

Evolution is a metaphysical worldview pushed by anti-Christian materialists and naturalists to undermine God's authority over creation. I personally reject theistic evolution because it is too quick to dismiss revelation to fit the modern worldview of a macroevolution, and it gives way to pantheism rather than true theism because it reduces everything to a sort of "prime matter" that can simply be retooled and refit into anything. It rejects forms and essences through its proposition of the change of one kind of creature into another, completely foreign, kind of creature.
There's also the problem of the less perfect creature developing into the more perfect creature, which is philosophically incoherent, because you can't give what you don't have; so an eyeless fish developing eyes over millions of years due to mutations (which are proven to have detrimental effects on populations, rather than beneficial) goes against the principle of sufficient reason, which requires that for an effect to be present it must be contained within its cause. I could incoherently ramble on and on.


In short, adhering to a YEC cosmology through the rejection of evolution is a perfectly Catholic position. Humani Generis may have opened the gates to Catholic consideration of the evolutionary hypotheses and findings, but it was in no way an official acceptance of evolution as truth. Unfortunately, it has been misconstrued as such, given that many Catholics not only adhere to evolutionary theory, but seem to vilify those who reject it as the nonsense that it is.


Ok I like what you are saying and I know it is not dogma. But I guess my question then is how can the infallible church not take a stance on an issue so vital to salvation and leading people astray? why is it not the leading defender of truth on this issue?

"How could the Church not define X if X is true and important?"
Whether the Church weighs in on some contemporary question you find important, is a very idiosyncratic way to discern whether Our Lord founded the Church, and whether the Church's claims are true. Those are the relevant questions.

The CCC does NOT teach about whether standard Darwinian theory is right or wrong. You can reconcile your belief that it's wrong fairly easily with a document that doesn't say whether it is wrong or right.

It is careful to not make a dogmatic statement i agree. My issue is not so much in being a young earth catholic as I know they are many. My issue is the church not taking a stance on truth and not fighting the single leading cause of the enemy that is turning people from faith.
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#17
(03-18-2020, 06:35 PM)19405 Wrote: It's almost like you're imagining that if the Church has infallible offices, then any time the pope wants, he can tap into his bucket of infallible statements and pull one out; and the most important ones are near the top of the bucket.

Needless to say, that isn't how a negative charism (such as infallibility) works


Please help me understand better. So the church can be wrong on such a vital issue? could the church in the CCC be wrong on stances it takes?
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#18
(03-18-2020, 07:27 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:  the single leading cause of the enemy that is turning people from faith.

Far from being the leading cause, I doubt most people even think about it. They leave the Church because of bad catechesis, especially on morals, irreverent, banal Masses (they 'feel better' in a protestant megachurch), or because they disagree with such teachings as abortion, same-sex 'marriage', cloning, etc.
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#19
(03-18-2020, 07:51 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 07:27 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:  the single leading cause of the enemy that is turning people from faith.

Far from being the leading cause, I doubt most people even think about it. They leave the Church because of bad catechesis, especially on morals, irreverent, banal Masses (they 'feel better' in a protestant megachurch), or because they disagree with such teachings as abortion, same-sex 'marriage', cloning, etc.


This is not what study after study shows, this is not my experience either. I was also referring to the Christian church as a whole, not just the catholic church.
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#20
II'm not concerned about protestants leaving their false 'churches', and I still think you're wrong about Catholics. I'd like to see those studies that show Catholics leave the Church over evolution.

From the Catechism of St Pius X:

12 [i]Q.[/i] The many societies of persons who are baptised but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

[i]A.[/i] No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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