To Catholic Creationist
#21
(03-18-2020, 08:45 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: II'm not concerned about protestants leaving their false 'churches', and I still think you're wrong about Catholics. I'd like to see those studies that show Catholics leave the Church over evolution.

From the Catechism of St Pius X:

12 [i]Q.[/i] The many societies of persons who are baptised but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

[i]A.[/i] No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.


Those studies did not care denomination, only those who were Christian who left the church. It was both catholic and protestant. Here is an article online i found by Catholics about why kids are leaving, same thing. The church is asleep on this issue. Both catholic and protestant. 


https://cruxnow.com/cna/2016/12/catholic...rents-can/
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#22
(03-18-2020, 06:21 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: But how could God church be so against the bible? how could it lead people away from God and teach doctrine so contrary to scripture?

You have it exactly backwards.

The Catholic Church came first, then Scripture (at least the New Testament) which teaches some of what Christ did (Cf Jn 21.25). The meaning of Scripture, and even what is Scripture depends on the Church's authority.

So to say, "I read this passage this way, so how can the Church say something different?" the problem is not the Church, but you.
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#23
(03-18-2020, 07:28 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 06:35 PM)19405 Wrote: It's almost like you're imagining that if the Church has infallible offices, then any time the pope wants, he can tap into his bucket of infallible statements and pull one out; and the most important ones are near the top of the bucket.

Needless to say, that isn't how a negative charism (such as infallibility) works


Please help me understand better. So the church can be wrong on such a vital issue? could the church in the CCC be wrong on stances it takes?


What I wrote does not mean that. What I wrote means that the Church NOT taking a side, and the Church teaching an objectively incorrect thing on faith and morals, are not the same.

If you think the Church OUGHT to definitively teach X, and the Church at this time doesn't claim to know whether X is true, then you are not asking for a change in teaching - you are asking for a clarification, for a definitive answer.

Now if you think evolution is a super important question, and want more activity in the hierarchy on that, then you're beef is that the Church isn't doing something you think it ought to

But the humans in the Church not performing all activities you think is goodbis gonna be true of every group of humans. This does nothing to advance your claim that the Church teaches a doctrine of creation, which contains objective falsehood
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#24
(03-18-2020, 08:53 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: Those studies did not care denomination, only those who were Christian who left the church. It was both catholic and protestant. Here is an article online i found by Catholics about why kids are leaving, same thing. The church is asleep on this issue. Both catholic and protestant. 


https://cruxnow.com/cna/2016/12/catholic...rents-can/

And it all goes right back to bad catechesis because people are abdicating their role as primary educators of their children and sending them to secular humanist/atheist public schools. It isn't about evolution in particular. It's that they're being fed the 'Science disproves religion' lie in those schools.

Quote:In contrast, if students are taught evolution and the Big Bang theory at the same school where they learn religion, and they are taught by people with religious convictions, then “you’re kind of shown that there’s not conflicts between those, and you understand the Church and Church history and its relationship to science,” he said.
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#25
Toliken1096 Wrote:I think my main issue is why will the church not take a stance against what is causing so many to leave Christ and the church?

jovan66102 Wrote:Far from being the leading cause, I doubt most people even think about it

MagisterMusicae Wrote:Personal opinion here : I don't think it has much to do with people leaving the Church

I have to agree with Toli on this.

It's not the people that are well educated in Church theology that leave because of ToE
It's not the older folk that leave the Church because of ToE either.
It's the young people who grew up in the Church that leave because of ToE.

My case isn't a one off, i know heaps of people that left God the same way.
Teenagers are impressionable. In science the theory of evolution and the big bang are presented as if they are facts that refute God's existence.
In a public school there is no theology at all so the teenager easily turns from God.

But even at a Catholic school like the high school I went to, what they teach is such a liberal form of Catholicism that doesn't teach much at all.
I recently had a look at the religious curriculum that my old school currently has. I just found myself shaking my head.

Here is a link to the religious curriculum that my old school currently has. Have a look and tell me what u guys think.
http://penola.vic.edu.au/download/RE.pdf
Is it the same as the Catholic schools you and your parents and kids attended?

The area where the RCC is failing is in the education system. 

It's easy to just blame the parents here but many of them came from places where they weren't taught much themselves.
My parents had no schooling, Church was their only source of knowledge, it's not where you learn advanced theology really.
Therefore i believe the RCC has a greater responsibility in education in their very own Catholic schools. 
To reinforce what the parents have already taught.

People who came from Catholic families and went to Catholic schools turn 18yo having been indoctrinated by the secular division which poses as a science.


I don't agree with your solution that making a 6-day creation doctrine will stop young people from leaving. Catholic schools are too liberal.
It starts in science, ToE has to be presented as a philosophical theory, not a scientific one. Opposing theories such as intelligent design should also be taught.
Unfortunately the youth doesn't really even know what science is. To them a 90% consensus is science.

In religious studies I believe they should teach that if evolution is true, it doesn't necessarily contradict scripture
I've looked at the arguments made by theistic evolutionists with an open mind and found some of them to be quite reasonable.

For example God made the animals before he made man. The fossil record confirms this.
Or "And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds" Genesis 1:24 (NIV) It seems to suggest that evolution may have taken place here

Even In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty..."  
There is no indication of how much time had passed before the start of the 2nd verse. In fact the way it's written suggests that some time did pass

Im not saying that theistic evolutionists are right because they have a lot of holes to fill by trying to serve God and a secular pseudoscience  

I think that humans always want an answer to everything even when we don't really know for sure. 

I really like the answer "we don't know". It requires a degree of humility to admit that we just don't know the whole extent of the glory and wonder of God.
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#26
(03-18-2020, 09:22 PM)19405 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 07:28 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 06:35 PM)19405 Wrote: It's almost like you're imagining that if the Church has infallible offices, then any time the pope wants, he can tap into his bucket of infallible statements and pull one out; and the most important ones are near the top of the bucket.

Needless to say, that isn't how a negative charism (such as infallibility) works


Please help me understand better. So the church can be wrong on such a vital issue? could the church in the CCC be wrong on stances it takes?


What I wrote does not mean that. What I wrote means that the Church NOT taking a side, and the Church teaching an objectively incorrect thing on faith and morals, are not the same.

If you think the Church OUGHT to definitively teach X, and the Church at this time doesn't claim to know whether X is true, then you are not asking for a change in teaching - you are asking for a clarification, for a definitive answer.

Now if you think evolution is a super important question, and want more activity in the hierarchy on that, then you're beef is that the Church isn't doing something you think it ought to

But the humans in the Church not performing all activities you think is goodbis gonna be true of every group of humans. This does nothing to advance your claim that the Church teaches a doctrine of creation, which contains objective falsehood


I never said it did. I said it stand by while the greatest harm being done by the enemy is unchecked. And its stance is made clear if anything to is willing to endorse it.
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#27
(03-18-2020, 09:20 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 06:21 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: But how could God church be so against the bible? how could it lead people away from God and teach doctrine so contrary to scripture?

You have it exactly backwards.

The Catholic Church came first, then Scripture (at least the New Testament) which teaches some of what Christ did (Cf Jn 21.25). The meaning of Scripture, and even what is Scripture depends on the Church's authority.

So to say, "I read this passage this way, so how can the Church say something different?" the problem is not the Church, but you.


This then leads me to why not Islam and the Koran? if i have issues then it must just be me.
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#28
(03-18-2020, 09:48 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 08:53 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: Those studies did not care denomination, only those who were Christian who left the church. It was both catholic and protestant. Here is an article online i found by Catholics about why kids are leaving, same thing. The church is asleep on this issue. Both catholic and protestant. 


https://cruxnow.com/cna/2016/12/catholic...rents-can/

And it all goes right back to bad catechesis because people are abdicating their role as primary educators of their children and sending them to secular humanist/atheist public schools. It isn't about evolution in particular. It's that they're being fed the 'Science disproves religion' lie in those schools.

Quote:In contrast, if students are taught evolution and the Big Bang theory at the same school where they learn religion, and they are taught by people with religious convictions, then “you’re kind of shown that there’s not conflicts between those, and you understand the Church and Church history and its relationship to science,” he said.

Well said. But as to the quote, this was an opinion that people can accept evolution and catholicism, while true for some they are a minority compared to the millions that clearly see a distinction.
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#29
(03-19-2020, 01:48 AM)Porkncheese Wrote:
Toliken1096 Wrote:I think my main issue is why will the church not take a stance against what is causing so many to leave Christ and the church?

jovan66102 Wrote:Far from being the leading cause, I doubt most people even think about it

MagisterMusicae Wrote:Personal opinion here : I don't think it has much to do with people leaving the Church

I have to agree with Toli on this.

It's not the people that are well educated in Church theology that leave because of ToE
It's not the older folk that leave the Church because of ToE either.
It's the young people who grew up in the Church that leave because of ToE.

My case isn't a one off, i know heaps of people that left God the same way.
Teenagers are impressionable. In science the theory of evolution and the big bang are presented as if they are facts that refute God's existence.
In a public school there is no theology at all so the teenager easily turns from God.

But even at a Catholic school like the high school I went to, what they teach is such a liberal form of Catholicism that doesn't teach much at all.
I recently had a look at the religious curriculum that my old school currently has. I just found myself shaking my head.

Here is a link to the religious curriculum that my old school currently has. Have a look and tell me what u guys think.
http://penola.vic.edu.au/download/RE.pdf
Is it the same as the Catholic schools you and your parents and kids attended?

The area where the RCC is failing is in the education system. 

It's easy to just blame the parents here but many of them came from places where they weren't taught much themselves.
My parents had no schooling, Church was their only source of knowledge, it's not where you learn advanced theology really.
Therefore i believe the RCC has a greater responsibility in education in their very own Catholic schools. 
To reinforce what the parents have already taught.

People who came from Catholic families and went to Catholic schools turn 18yo having been indoctrinated by the secular division which poses as a science.


I don't agree with your solution that making a 6-day creation doctrine will stop young people from leaving. Catholic schools are too liberal.
It starts in science, ToE has to be presented as a philosophical theory, not a scientific one. Opposing theories such as intelligent design should also be taught.
Unfortunately the youth doesn't really even know what science is. To them a 90% consensus is science.

In religious studies I believe they should teach that if evolution is true, it doesn't necessarily contradict scripture
I've looked at the arguments made by theistic evolutionists with an open mind and found some of them to be quite reasonable.

For example God made the animals before he made man. The fossil record confirms this.
Or "And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds" Genesis 1:24 (NIV) It seems to suggest that evolution may have taken place here

Even In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty..."  
There is no indication of how much time had passed before the start of the 2nd verse. In fact the way it's written suggests that some time did pass

Im not saying that theistic evolutionists are right because they have a lot of holes to fill by trying to serve God and a secular pseudoscience  

I think that humans always want an answer to everything even when we don't really know for sure. 

I really like the answer "we don't know". It requires a degree of humility to admit that we just don't know the whole extent of the glory and wonder of God.


I agree fully. Liberalism is destroying the catholic church and protestants. Instead of becoming more like the world we should stand against it on truth. If the catholic church did this my biggest stumbling block would be removed.  

As for knowing the truth, I think we have it, it was given to us thousands of years ago in a book called genesis. But so many are indoctrinated into materialism they are never shown how science confirms this. 


“Absolute stranglehold materialistic atheism has on every thought that is allowed to be considered in the scientific and educational realms. This makes the American classroom one of the most censored, thought-controlled locations on the planet.”
-John Morris and Frank Sherwin The Fossil Record: Unearthing Nature's History of Life 2017
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#30
"its stance is made clear if anything to is willing to endorse it."

I realize English may not be your first language, but I need you to rephrase, as I don't follow. Though, if it isn't, kudos to you, I don't speak any foreign language quite as well as you speak English.
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