To Catholic Creationist
#31
(03-19-2020, 09:33 AM)Tolkien109 Wrote: I never said it did. 

If you concede that the Church did not teach error on evolution, then you haven't said anything to argue against its infallibility. Because that's all the claim is.
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#32
(03-19-2020, 09:43 AM)19405 Wrote: "its stance is made clear if anything to is willing to endorse it."

I realize English may not be your first language, but I need you to rephrase, as I don't follow. Though, if it isn't, kudos to you, I don't speak any foreign language quite as well as you speak English.

I hate to admit English is my first and only language. I hate it. It does not make sense. But I think the above was the result of fast typing, I have much to do in a short time. I need to listen to Treebeard and "don't be hasty" so I apologize. I was just saying that the CCC seems to approve of evolution/old earth.
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#33
(03-19-2020, 09:57 AM)19405 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 09:33 AM)Tolkien109 Wrote: I never said it did. 

If you concede that the Church did not teach error on evolution, then you haven't said anything to argue against its infallibility. Because that's all the claim is.


I think you have mistaken my thread as an attack on Catholicism, it is not. I said if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue that effects salvation. I want help to understand catholic who are creationists and how they hold to catholicism.
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#34
The beef is with Scientism and not evolution as a whole..........THAT is what Catholics should be focusing on. The scholastics held all sorts of positions that amounted to no more than theological speculations that are allowed to be discussed. To claim it is Sensus Fedilium or reached a level of authority on par to doctrine is just not true.
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#35
"if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?
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#36
The CCC does not anywhere  in its  pages claim that evolution/ old earth earth is true
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#37
(03-19-2020, 01:16 PM)19405 Wrote: "if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?


Once more I am not looking at this to attack the church. I am just saying how could God's church on earth not take a stand against evolution and for truth? how can it at best tolerate evolution and leave it open to be believed and at worst indicate it accepts it.  Especially when so many are leaving the church over this issue. I want to understand how catholic creationists can make this a non-issue for me.
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#38
(03-19-2020, 01:57 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:16 PM)19405 Wrote: "if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?
Once more I am not looking at this to attack the church. I am just saying how could God's church on earth not take a stand against evolution and for truth? how can it at best tolerate evolution and leave it open to be believed and at worst indicate it accepts it.  Especially when so many are leaving the church over this issue. I want to understand how catholic creationists can make this a non-issue for me.

It also doesn't take a position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop. Or whether chocolate or vanilla is better. The point being is the Church isn't in the business of promulgating anything about the natural sciences. 
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#39
Let's grant for the sake of argument that it is bad that the offices of the Church have not made an official and infallible pronouncement on evolution.

What you are asking is, "How can the Church not do X good thing?" How?

Of the original 12 bishops, one of them helped kill God. Some bishops killed people. Some collaborated with dictators. Some molested kids. None of that is evidence that anything Catholicism claims is false. That is all bad, and we fight to make the people in the hierarchy responsible and make ourselves more holy, but the Church does not claim that the people in it will always do the right thing. 

You keep saying that you find a conflict with what the Church claims to be and its non-policy on YEC. That only makes sense if you believe that the Church makes a claim that every important question on Biblical interpretation will be answered definitively by its official teaching organs. The Church does not make such a claim. That is why there is no conflict.

As said, there are Catholics who advocate within the Church for an acceptance of creationism; if you have no actual arguments against Catholicism (and really good arguments for YEC), then you should probably become one of them.


I think you'd really like these guys: http://kolbecenter.org/ I'm not sold on every argument they make, but they are alright.
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#40
(03-19-2020, 02:14 PM)Adventus Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:57 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:16 PM)19405 Wrote: "if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?
Once more I am not looking at this to attack the church. I am just saying how could God's church on earth not take a stand against evolution and for truth? how can it at best tolerate evolution and leave it open to be believed and at worst indicate it accepts it.  Especially when so many are leaving the church over this issue. I want to understand how catholic creationists can make this a non-issue for me.

It also doesn't take a position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop. Or whether chocolate or vanilla is better. The point being is the Church isn't in the business of promulgating anything about the natural sciences. 


it should for truth and salvation related issues, however. If people leave the church over how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop, I hope the church reacts as well.  ;)
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