To Catholic Creationist
#41
(03-19-2020, 03:27 PM)19405 Wrote: Let's grant for the sake of argument that it is bad that the offices of the Church have not made an official and infallible pronouncement on evolution.

What you are asking is, "How can the Church not do X good thing?" How?

Of the original 12 bishops, one of them helped kill God. Some bishops killed people. Some collaborated with dictators. Some molested kids. None of that is evidence that anything Catholicism claims is false. That is all bad, and we fight to make the people in the hierarchy responsible and make ourselves more holy, but the Church does not claim that the people in it will always do the right thing. 

You keep saying that you find a conflict with what the Church claims to be and its non-policy on YEC. That only makes sense if you believe that the Church makes a claim that every important question on Biblical interpretation will be answered definitively by its official teaching organs. The Church does not make such a claim. That is why there is no conflict.

As said, there are Catholics who advocate within the Church for an acceptance of creationism; if you have no actual arguments against Catholicism (and really good arguments for YEC), then you should probably become one of them.

I do like the Kolbe caenter and other catholic creationist. My granfather was a PHD Biologist who taught creation at a local catholic collage. That school now teaches evolution. Well it did, it just closed last year because people were leaving thew church. Why go to a collage that teaches what a secular onw does? now it is closed. 


I think you'd really like these guys: http://kolbecenter.org/ I'm not sold on every argument they make, but they are alright.

So help me understand what infallibility is? in what was it the doctrine of Catholics correct and when is it false? and since the church did make a stance on evolution/creation i would much rather it be based on truth not modern opinions creeping into the church.
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#42
(03-19-2020, 09:01 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: So help me understand what infallibility is? in what was it the doctrine of Catholics correct and when is it false? and since the church did make a stance on evolution/creation i would much rather it be based on truth not modern opinions creeping into the church.

Infallibility is a negative thing. It prevents the Pope, or the Church, from teaching falsehood. It doesn't make the Pope teach on a topic if he doesn't want to.

There's no issue with the evolution of plants and animals. If evolution is true, then it occurs because God created DNA and life to mutate and evolve. Human evolution is more of a problem, but all that's required is that there was a first man, from which God created the first woman, and all humans are descended from them. And that's not something science can prove or disprove.
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#43
(03-19-2020, 09:48 PM)Paul Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 09:01 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote: So help me understand what infallibility is? in what was it the doctrine of Catholics correct and when is it false? and since the church did make a stance on evolution/creation i would much rather it be based on truth not modern opinions creeping into the church.

Infallibility is a negative thing. It prevents the Pope, or the Church, from teaching falsehood. It doesn't make the Pope teach on a topic if he doesn't want to.

There's no issue with the evolution of plants and animals. If evolution is true, then it occurs because God created DNA and life to mutate and evolve. Human evolution is more of a problem, but all that's required is that there was a first man, from which God created the first woman, and all humans are descended from them. And that's not something science can prove or disprove.


It might not be an issue for you, it is for the millions leaving the church. And at least one Pope has spoken in favor of evolution.
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#44
The Op just basically wishes that the RCC would stand up and enforce it's authority over the evil forces we see manifest in society
In the past any new law had to be confirmed by the RCC before being enacted
Now laws are made that totally go against God's word and we hear nothing more than a squeak from the RCC

The education system is in shambles. Satan basically owns the schools and the youth.
The RCC has such a long standing world wide education system that is unmatched .
Yet it's seemingly just rolled over to the insidious secular movement that has swept the west

Within the Church society everything doesn't look so bad. Out in the larger combined community things are collapsing, things that once sat on the foundations of the RCC
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#45
(03-19-2020, 08:58 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 02:14 PM)Adventus Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:57 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:16 PM)19405 Wrote: "if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?
Once more I am not looking at this to attack the church. I am just saying how could God's church on earth not take a stand against evolution and for truth? how can it at best tolerate evolution and leave it open to be believed and at worst indicate it accepts it.  Especially when so many are leaving the church over this issue. I want to understand how catholic creationists can make this a non-issue for me.

It also doesn't take a position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop. Or whether chocolate or vanilla is better. The point being is the Church isn't in the business of promulgating anything about the natural sciences. 


it should for truth and salvation related issues, however. If people leave the church over how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop, I hope the church reacts as well.  ;)

The Church isn't a manufacturing facility of truth. In the sense that it creates something new. It protects, expands, clarifies, etc.......what is already there. Having her define everything under the sun in an authoritative manner (assuming it was new and she possessed such an authority) goes down a very legalistic rabbit hole. Just imagine how many possible reasons could exist for why people leave the Church? It's just not practical nor does it mesh with reality and all the human endeavors and not to mention that God created man to be free and sometimes that means letting him roam, but with purpose and direction.  
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#46
(03-19-2020, 09:01 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:  in what was it the doctrine of Catholics correct and when is it false? and since the church did make a stance on evolution/creation i would much rather it be based on truth not modern opinions creeping into the church.

I don't understand this paragraph.
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#47
(03-20-2020, 09:37 AM)Adventus Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 08:58 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 02:14 PM)Adventus Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:57 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 01:16 PM)19405 Wrote: "if the church is as it claims, how can it stand by on this issue"

What, in your mind, does the Church claim to be, such that it must (of logical necessity) speak out on this issue? 

The Church could be infallible, and not say anything about evolution.
The Church could be indefectible, and not say anything on evolution.

What does the Church claim about itself, that it would be logically necessary for it to make evolution a big issue, such that otherwise its claims are false?
Once more I am not looking at this to attack the church. I am just saying how could God's church on earth not take a stand against evolution and for truth? how can it at best tolerate evolution and leave it open to be believed and at worst indicate it accepts it.  Especially when so many are leaving the church over this issue. I want to understand how catholic creationists can make this a non-issue for me.

It also doesn't take a position on how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop. Or whether chocolate or vanilla is better. The point being is the Church isn't in the business of promulgating anything about the natural sciences. 


it should for truth and salvation related issues, however. If people leave the church over how many licks it takes to get to the center of a lollipop, I hope the church reacts as well.  ;)

The Church isn't a manufacturing facility of truth. In the sense that it creates something new. It protects, expands, clarifies, etc.......what is already there. Having her define everything under the sun in an authoritative manner (assuming it was new and she possessed such an authority) goes down a very legalistic rabbit hole. Just imagine how many possible reasons could exist for why people leave the Church? It's just not practical nor does it mesh with reality and all the human endeavors and not to mention that God created man to be free and sometimes that means letting him roam, but with purpose and direction.  


and yet it does comment on creation/evolution. And does not stand for truth against the cause that leads millions away from the faith.
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#48
(03-21-2020, 12:51 AM)19405 Wrote:
(03-19-2020, 09:01 PM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:  in what was it the doctrine of Catholics correct and when is it false? and since the church did make a stance on evolution/creation i would much rather it be based on truth not modern opinions creeping into the church.

I don't understand this paragraph.

How I am to know when the CCC is correct, and when it might be false? and if the church makes a stand on the leading issue of why youth leave the church [creation/evolution] I would rather it be based on the bible and tradition, not modern secular thought.
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#49
Is there a catholic "sect" that has not adopted second Vatican and modernity?
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#50
(03-21-2020, 08:00 AM)Tolkien1096 Wrote:
How I am to know when the CCC is correct, and when it might be false? and if the church makes a stand on the leading issue of why youth leave the church [creation/evolution Wrote:I would rather it be based on the bible and tradition, not modern secular thought. pid='1416128' dateline='1584766262']

The CCC NOWHERE IN ITS PAGES ENDORSES BIOLOGICAL MACROEVOLUTION.

You keep saying it does, but it. does. not.
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