Trads apathetic toward apologetics
#1
A mere observation. Not entirely sure why.

When coming into the Church, I can't recall a single Trad that I engaged with or was into apologetics in general.

Perhaps I did and didn't know it at the time. But even now, it's mostly neo-con and ex-evangelicals leading it.

Thoughts?
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#2
See FishEaters.com
T h e   D u d e t t e   A b i d e s
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#3
I see sites more now, but I suppose I meant a face as well.

Taylor Marshall? But he's not really in apologetics as much anymore.
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#4
(03-26-2020, 01:39 PM)Adventus Wrote: I see sites more now, but I suppose I meant a face as well.

Taylor Marshall? But he's not really in apologetics as much anymore.

Well, we're not nearly as numerous as conservative Novus Ordo types.  If you're talking about apologists who have some name recognition, I'd suggest that at least partially explains it.  You can search places like YouTube for traditional Catholicism and you can find some channels that appear to do at least some apologetics.  I've seen videos that have thousands of views, which is a good number but hardly the kind that'll give you wide name recognition.  I imagine you could also find some on social media like Facebook but since I don't do social media, I don't actually know.
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#5
The Meaning of Catholic on YouTube is pretty good. Tim Flanders, who runs that site, has been on Taylor Marshall's show a lot lately.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaMoKEE...gx3icjA36Q
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8
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#6
From his webpage:

Nevertheless this apostolate does not identify as “Traditionalist”...
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#7
(03-26-2020, 05:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: From his webpage:

Nevertheless this apostolate does not identify as “Traditionalist”...

And? That still doesn't mean the guy isn't in-line with the what we identify as a "Traditionalist."
Further down on that same page he elaborates a few more points:

Quote:Second, the term “traditionalist” itself is not traditional—it was not used by saints or doctors of the past and it is unwise to use a different term than what they used.
 

An undeniably true observation.

Quote:Fifth, traditionalists have an unhealthy habit of identifying Thomism with the faith and the faith with Thomism.


Again, a completely true and valid point to be made. I myself take issue with the heavy emphasis on Thomism so prevalent among "trads" when other Doctors of the Church, such as St. Bonaventure, have perfectly valid and orthodox theological systems.

Quote:Finally, using the term “traditionalist” contributes to the diluting of the term “Catholic” by placing the emphasis away from “Catholic”—the truly traditional term—and hinders the proper use and meaning of “Catholic.” Thus I believe instead of “traditionalist” (or even “Conservative”) every faithful Catholic should work to reclaim the term “Catholic” and only identify himself thusly. The terms “Traditionalist” and “Conservative” are used on this site to denote those Catholics who self-identify this way.


I, again, wholeheartedly agree with this statement. There shouldn't be "traditionalist" Catholics, just like there shouldn't be "Liberal" or "Conciliar" or "Conservative" Catholics. All of these have bled-in from the modern left-right political paradigm, and many have run with it. Either you're a Catholic or you're not. There aren't degrees of Catholicity.

So, while the author may not identify with the modern label of "traditionalist," looking at what he's written and said is very much in-line with the adherence to Catholic truth any good "Traditionalist" Catholic would accept.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8
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#8
(03-26-2020, 07:36 PM)Augustinian Wrote: I myself take issue with the heavy emphasis on Thomism so prevalent among "trads" when other Doctors of the Church, such as St. Bonaventure, have perfectly valid and orthodox theological systems.

I don't mean to harp or take the thread off topic, but I think this deserves some thought.

One of the things that a Thomistic system provides is a near-complete theological system. Granted, Thomism is not the Faith, but in the theology of a Bonaventure, or Augustine, or any other Doctor, one does not find as highly-developed and complete a system as they do in Thomism, nor do they find a system more recommended by the Church as the Thomistic Moderate Realism. It is not perfect, but it is a highly complex and complete system.

For the last 700+ years there has been a heavy emphasis on refining the teachings of St Thomas Aquinas, correcting certain aspects as our knowledge has developed, and using the principles of the system to dig deeper and explain things beyond what St Thomas himself explained.

That is not to put down the contribution of other theologians and Saints, but from St Thomas onward, what one sees is that more often those who come up with alternative theories are doing so as a critique of Thomism, not in order to develop another system as an alternative. In the few cases where you do see the effort at developing an alternative system, such as the Nominalists (in Philosophy and theology) or the Rigorists (in Ethics), these often end in heresy.

By all means, let's have contributions from others, and not put Thomism up on a pedastal as if it were the only possible school of theology or philosophy, but I do fear that those who are quick to make such criticisms and put down Thomism often do so not having deeply studied it or another system. I don't know if that your case, Augustinian, so it's not directed at you personally, but it is a common thread I've often found.
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#9
(03-26-2020, 09:52 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: By all means, let's have contributions from others, and not put Thomism up on a pedastal as if it were the only possible school of theology or philosophy, but I do fear that those who are quick to make such criticisms and put down Thomism often do so not having deeply studied it or another system. I don't know if that your case, Augustinian, so it's not directed at you personally, but it is a common thread I've often found.

Putting down Thomism is not my intent, really. It's more of an observation I have noted among many people who call themselves "Trads" these days tend only to read or reference St. Thomas, and have little-to-no knowledge or appeal to the other incredible, orthodox theologians in the Church. I guess my problem lies more in the way that St. Thomas is wielded, and misunderstood, than in any major personal issue with his system.

And just to emphasize this point, to the credit of Timothy Flanders, here is the rest of the point he made that I referenced:

Quote:It is true that Thomism above all is understood by the Church to be the most vital philosophy and theological method perhaps of all time. Nevertheless, this should not exclude or undervalue the other Latin philosophical schools like Scotism as well as the Greek schools like the Cappadocian Fathers and the Alexandrian school, as well as the sadly neglected Syrian school.


I agree wholeheartedly with the emphasized point above (admittedly, I went through a brief anti-Thomism phase a few months back, albeit my issues lie with Aristotle more than the Angelic Doctor), which, I believe, is the same point you are making. So, I guess, in my case, the issue I have is with neo-Thomists, rather than St. Thomas's system itself. Due to the accessibility of Thomas, once you understand Aristotelian terminology, as a sort of theological reference guide (as was the intent of the Summa), it has lead to this pride that makes many believe that they themselves are theologians because they can haphazardly throw out Thomistic arguments, which I find abrasive and irritating (since I have been guilty of it myself).
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

'And he shall be as a tree that is planted by the waters, that spreadeth out its roots towards moisture: and it shall not fear when the heat cometh.' - Jeremias 17:8
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#10
(03-26-2020, 10:57 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(03-26-2020, 09:52 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: By all means, let's have contributions from others,

Putting down Thomism is not my intent, really. It's more of an observation I have noted among many people who call themselves "Trads" these days tend only to read or reference St. Thomas, and have little-to-no knowledge or appeal to the other incredible, orthodox theologians in the Church. I

It is true that Thomism above all is understood by the Church to be the most vital philosophy and theological method perhaps of all time. Nevertheless, this should not exclude or undervalue the other Latin philosophical schools like Scotism

I agree wholeheartedly with the emphasized point above
I have been re-reading Josef Pieper's lively (!) Scholasticism, which helped me with a Medieval History of Ideas course way back, and I have lined up on my shelf to try to tackle Etienne Gilson's Spirit of Medieval Philosophy, supplemented by his History of Christian Philosophy in the Middle Ages and his student Armand Maurer's Medieval Philosophy history.

The latter two are dense textbooks (hard to imagine the old days when they were assigned; by my time in the early 80s at a Jesuit-sponsored university, I and post-V2 classmates needed a lot of guidance to suss out the mindset). I was assigned David Knowles' Evolution of Medieval Thought and Friedrich Herr's The Medieval World, a fine pairing. I wonder what liberal arts students decades later at my institution would find on their syllabus now as required texts? I bet offerings in Classics (even then a barely surviving) and medieval studies have been jettisoned for intersectionality.

I read of Thomas Merton seeing Gilson's Spirit in the window at Scribner's in NYC, and buying it--one of his small steps in his gradual entry into the Church. Any other recommendations welcome, as I find myself mulling over this topic. My interest these days, as a Secular Franciscan in formation who finished a certificate in Franciscan Studies online from the U of St F (Joliet IL) lies in the Franciscan-Augustinian line more than Thomistic, although I finished over Christmas break Timothy McDermott's compendium of a paraphrase of the Summa Theologica, itself a hefty book if 1/10 the original. Aquinas 101 videos from the Thomistic Institute have been piling up in my saved mail for "shelter-in-place." But even in my college Medieval Philosophy course, I surprised myself by leaning to Augustine rather than Aquinas.

As for Scotus, Sr Mary Beth Ingham (who teaches at my undergrad alma mater long after I left) has written two introductions, the appealingly titled Scotus for Dunces and then Introducing John Duns Scotus. As for Bonaventure, I tried Sr Ilia Delio's creation-spirituality take on introducing him, but her study failed to inspire. Because as is stated above, only Thomas lasted long enough to create a (mostly?)complete survey, the work of John Duns Scotus, who died early on, and of Bonaventure, who had a lot of administrative duties as Minister General of the Friars Minor, arguably remain underdeveloped; the tilt towards Thomas as we know in the later 19c solidified his place in schools.
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