Catholicism
(05-11-2020, 07:38 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote:
Quote:That said, a quick Google search tells me that they were not part of the Hebrew canon, unless they were buried in the existing books like the additional Esther and Daniel chapters. I know they were in the Vulgate but initially, Jerome wasn't going to include them and they weren't added to the Septuagint until years after Christ's life on Earth. If Jesus knew about them and raised no objections to their not being included, or at least considered secondary, then why should I care? They are good reads and yes, my faith life will be enhanced by them but as to their canonicity, I'm content to leave others to duke that out.  

What is truly important is following Christ and not allowing our faith walks to become obscured by the traditions of men like the Pharisees did. Jesus took great umbrage with that and I'm with Jesus on this one



MM already addressed you assertion that the deutercanonical books being inserted above. 

As to leaving the deutercanonical debate to others to duke out, that already was done. The local councils of Carthage and Rome and the approbation of Pope St. Damasus, as well as the Council of Florence (in 1439 I believe) and finally Trent have dealt with that issue definitively: the deutercanonical books are Sacred Scripture inspired by God. That is what the Christian Church which Jesus Christ founded to teach the nations, believes.

And Jerome wasn't going to include. But guess what, he did. Because the Church said they're Scripture. And Jerome was a faithful Catholic.

And you can't just bump this off and say that your "faith walk" with Jesus is all that matters. Doctrine matters. Jesus Christ taught things, which people need to believe to be saved. He gave a definitive teaching and confided that to the Apostles and His Church. If you think that you can just go it alone and ignore Jesus' teaching to the Church and the Apostles and still have a serious "faith walk", you are confused. 

And again, just dismissing Apostolic teaching as traditions of men and calling the Catholic Church pharisaical isn't going do. If the Tradition is from God, then you put run tbe risk of being against the Gospel.

Again, I have nothing against the deuterocanonical books per se. I’ve read them and will continue to read them and learn their wisdom. I wasn’t referring directly to them when I said “the traditions of men”. All religions are susceptible to this and Christianity is no different. The Jews of Jesus’ time had their weighty oral traditions which were eventually written down and became what is called the Talmud. There was some great teaching in the tradition but it wasn’t Scripture. The sects of the day insisted upon their adherence which obscured the real teaching of God. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have similar traditions and Protestants have their forms of additional rules and regulations that have been added to the faith. None of it is right, though. This is what I guard myself against and always will. Matthew chapter 23 ought to give you pause. I know it does me.
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(05-12-2020, 07:24 AM)Wingfold Wrote: Again, I have nothing against the deuterocanonical books per se. I’ve read them and will continue to read them and learn their wisdom.

And that is good. At the very least they will give you a better appreciation of the culture and time in which Jesus Christ walked. Whether or not you believe them to be Scripture they do testify to the Jewish religious belief at the time (which, by no means, was monolithic.)

Quote: I wasn’t referring directly to them when I said “the traditions of men”. All religions are susceptible to this and Christianity is no different. The Jews of Jesus’ time had their weighty oral traditions which were eventually written down and became what is called the Talmud. There was some great teaching in the tradition but it wasn’t Scripture. 

Yes. I wouldn't disagree that there can be "traditions of men."

There are such things as traditions which do not affect your salvation or the Christian faith (like having pews in churches, or making the sign of the cross from right to left as opposed to left to right, etc.) These things, in and of themselves are not essential to Christianity. They can even be good. The trouble comes when these are set up as a hill to die on. It would be wrong leave the Church because they decided not to have pews (and, by the way, traditionally churches didn't.)

The problem with calling all tradition "traditions of men" is that there is a legitimate form of tradition. Tradition just means handing down.  So the idea behind Catholic tradition is essentially this: from Jesus Christ the Gospel was given to the Apostles. The Apostles gave the gospel to their disciples, from those disciples of the Apostles the gospel was given to their own disciples on down to the present day. 

It is the mission of the Church to hand on the Gospel to future generations until Our Lord comes again. And, what is great, is that this tradition has been encapsulated into writing. We mentioned earlier in this thread that we have the writings of the Church Fathers. The fathers are a priceless testimony to what the faith of the early Church was and it is a great blessing that we have them.

Some of the fathers even knew the Apostles themselves. Ignatius of Antioch, of whom we have seven letters that are extent, was the successor of Peter as the bishop of Antioch. He was a disciple of John. Polycarp of Smryna was a disciple of John as well. We have one letter from him. Clement of Rome, who was one of the successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome wrote the letter First Clement, which we still have today. There are more fathers, like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons etc., whose writings we still have. 

You can read them yourself. I would encourage you to do such. (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/)

Quote:The sects of the day insisted upon their adherence which obscured the real teaching of God. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have similar traditions and Protestants have their forms of additional rules and regulations that have been added to the faith. None of it is right, though. This is what I guard myself against and always will. Matthew chapter 23 ought to give you pause. I know it does me.

See above.
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I think Wingfold gave up his defence of his heresy. He joined FE on 21 April, made over a hundred posts in this thread he started to defend his decision to become a prot, and hasn't been on the forum since 12 May. He lasted three weeks! I give him props for perseverance!
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