Are We Witnessing the Autodestruction of Church Militant?
#21
(05-07-2020, 02:18 PM)rose0325 Wrote:
(05-07-2020, 01:39 PM)Adventus Wrote: I will, however, note that the things I noted aren't just something from the past; I'm rather new at entering these sort of discussions and saw this rather quickly.

It also depends on where these discussions are taking place, and with whom.

Excessively secular, tinfoil-hat thinking is much more common among the laity than among SSPX priests. As a case-in-point, a friend of mine in the French District told me that there are a lot of people in his chapel who are borderline Resistance types, and those who promote flat-earth conspiracy theories or deny the moon landings. And when it comes to theological views, the laity attending SSPX chapels are definitely a mixed bag: I've met people all throughout the spectrum, from sedevacantism through indult conservatism.

Discussions taking place online are also bound to display more extreme views, or at least seem that way. As I said earlier, the Internet does not amplify the voices of reason and charity, but those that are the loudest. Add that to the fact that posts online do not contain tone and facial expression.

However, it's also simply an unfortunate fact that the SSPX does attract a lot of extreme people. Not because of the SSPX’s own views, but because of the general situation in the Church and in the world. People see how the SSPX is sidelined, and if they themselves tend not to fit in, they might feel like they’ve encountered something relatable. I believe Fr. Niklaus Pfluger, first assistant of the SSPX, said something along those lines to Bp. Williamson in a letter.

I can imagine a parallel world whereby an offshoot of the SSPX makes the observation of the SSPX, that, as you said of the Novus Ordo......"simply amplifies those things and renders one less able to resist temptation"....So far as I've been involved in these conversations. But it's not something that really gets brought up, which makes me wonder why? Specifically for a group that appreciates clarity, precision, truth, etc. These things are usually posed as questions by lurkers and those curious. At the very least it seems one good priest has brought this up.
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#22
(05-08-2020, 12:37 PM)rose0325 Wrote:
(05-08-2020, 11:01 AM)Adventus Wrote: I can imagine a parallel world whereby an offshoot of the SSPX makes the observation of the SSPX, that, as you said of the Novus Ordo......"simply amplifies those things and renders one less able to resist temptation"....So far as I've been involved in these conversations. But it's not something that really gets brought up, which makes me wonder why? Specifically for a group that appreciates clarity, precision, truth, etc. These things are usually posed as questions by lurkers and those curious. At the very least it seems one good priest has brought this up.

What I said about the Novus Ordo is not my opinion, since it is an objective fact that it is inferior to the Mass of All Time, due to its distortion of Catholic doctrine on the priesthood, the propitiatory sacrifice of the Mass, and the Real Presence. What you're presenting would be a parallel world in which truth would no longer be truth; given that this is logically impossible, I see little merit in dwelling on a hypothetical such as this. Indeed, I hardly see the point of your response anyway, so I'm going to bow out here, if you don't mind.

There you go. It's an itch that must be scratched, can't help it I suppose.

It does eventually come out as noted from the getgo:


"However, it does seem to be a pattern when disturbing things are found within the SSPX, irrespective of all that CM is claiming, it is commonly met with a criticism of the NO...."
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#23
CM is going nowhere. They have only reported 'facts'. I think this video gives the best review of both SSPX and CM when it comes to this issue:

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#24
(05-08-2020, 03:37 PM)SeekSalvation Wrote: CM is going nowhere. They have only reported 'facts'.

It's quite obvious that they've done nothing of the sort. Like a bunch of various pieces of fruit in a fruitcake, there are a few facts, most of which are completely unrelated to each others, presented as half-truths, and then spun together with a bunch of highly-editorialized narrative and speculation (like batter) into a large fruitcake.

There obviously have been cases in the SSPX of abuse and problems. CM does accurately report a few facts from some cases, but not fully, and then has blackmailed some of those vicitims to amplify their stories, and then brough Jassy Jacas who (and let's just assume her whole personal story is true) at worst a priest asked some seemingly inappropriate questions to, and since then has decided to troll for reports of other people without facts or evidence and present them as if she has verified these facts, several of which stories have been proven false by the family members of the alleged "victims" like Hannah Merz.

As regards the video, I'd note that Fr Jenkins does not come from an unbiased place. He was kicked out of the SSPX back in 1983 for open rebellion against the SSPX and for theft of several properties along with a few other priests like that the SSPX had bought, which instead of putting in the name of the SSPX who funded those purchases, these priests put in their own name. This is something a U.S. court in fact decided had happened, and restored several properties to the SSPX, though not all, because of the legal structure that these priests had created made the theft unable to be legally undone. Public record and facts.

Fr Jenkins has to justify his position, and so the SSPX "straddling the fence" and "tolerating evil" is just that, otherwise it becomes very difficult in one's own conscience to justify what was overt theft ... unless of course "the true Faith requires it".
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#25
That CM 'used every technique of yellow journalism, complete with lurid, sensational headlines, shoddy 'journalism', outright lies and false accusations, and implications of corruption in the civil authorities involved', is of course, my opinion, based on a close reading of the facts.

That CM is autodestructing is not an opinion. It is based on the cold, hard fact of their rapidly descending reach. Advertisers don't like sites that don't produce revenue, and even Voris's backers must have limits to the amount of money they are willing to pour down a bottomless pit.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#26
(05-08-2020, 04:56 PM)rose0325 Wrote:
(05-08-2020, 03:07 PM)Adventus Wrote: "However, it does seem to be a pattern when disturbing things are found within the SSPX, irrespective of all that CM is claiming, it is commonly met with a criticism of the NO...."

It's not even clear what you're referring to when you're talking about the Novus Ordo, whether you're referring to the liturgical rite itself or the post-conciliar culture in general. Besides, my criticism of the Novus Ordo was in response to you drawing a comparison between the views commonly found among mainstream Catholics and the views of the SSPX, not in response to commentary on the problems within the SSPX. Given that you insist on going around and around in circles, as if to trap me into saying something you could exploit to promote an agenda, I'm now doubting that you've entered into this discussion in good faith. You can welcome yourself to the ignore list, and have a blessed day.

That's a shame. I thought your initial post was good and it was going well. 
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#27
The slide continues. They've dropped 178 page views and three unique visitors today. And their Alexa rank increased by 555. It's just a matter of time.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
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#28
(05-08-2020, 04:35 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Advertisers don't like sites that don't produce revenue, and even Voris's backers must have limits to the amount of money they are willing to pour down a bottomless pit.

One thing I've noticed on CM over the years is that they were clearly transitioning towards a subscription model, leaving teasers on the free side of things. This is just like the print media is doing to save their declining business.

Because of that, there was not a great deal of outside advertising on CM. I've always had the impression that they made money from subscriptions and that they had zealous deep-pocketed backers like Terry Carroll.

He was the man who swooped in in 2012 when the original organization, "Real Catholic TV", looked to be homeless and insolvent and gave the money for a new studio, with the proviso that he be involved in the direction of the organization which became known as "Church Militant". As Louie Verrecchio pointed out back in 2015, that changed everything: https://akacatholic.com/how-michael-voris-rolls/

Michael went from a fairly impartial Catholic who was interested in the truth (listen to the interview with Verrechhio on that post and you see a wildly different and much more impartial and truth-seeking Voris), to all out war on the SSPX. Interestingly enough, Carroll, was known in Texas as a big benefactor to the FSSP, and virulently anti-SSPX while also being virulently anti-the U.S. Hierarchy.

From Verrecchio's post :

Quote:At some point in 2012, Michael was informed that the lease for the space that Real Catholic TV occupied was not going to be renewed.

At the time, their financial situation was such that finding themselves without a studio and effectively “out of business,” at least temporarily, was a very real possibility.

What happened next is all anyone needs to know about what precipitated Michael’s stunning about face wherein good Catholic men and fellow soldiers for Christ that he once called “friend” suddenly became, not only disposable, but objects of derision, as if almost overnight they had become the enemy.

At the eleventh hour, a “knight in shining armor” and fanboi of Michael Voris strode onto the scene; a wealthy FSSP parishioner from Texas who offered to purchase a nearby building where the newly named Church Militant.tv could set up shop.

Problem solved!

Not so fast…

This particular “benefactor” wasn’t about to content himself with simply writing a few checks while leaving the heavy lifting to the pros; no, this guy wanted a return on investment well beyond whatever sense of satisfaction might come from an act of Catholic philanthropy.

As such, he leveraged his financial clout to the point of effectively purchasing for himself, in addition to some real estate in the Detroit suburbs, the title of “Executive Producer” at CMTV.

Once entrenched in the day to day operations, albeit mainly via telephone calls and emails that no one dared to ignore, over time he was able to impress upon Michael, among other things, his personal hatred for the Society of St. Pius X, somehow convincing him to adopt that irrational position as his very own, at least insofar as the editorial slant of his programming is concerned.

(I’m still not convinced that Michael actually believes some of the garbage that comes out of his mouth…)

Not content to stop there, the benefactor-turned-puppeteer also managed to convince Michael that it was necessary to take to the airwaves to vilify certain of his friends, not only for their support of the Society, but because they routinely cross a line in the sand beyond which the FSSP is, officially anyway, unable to go; namely, by pointing to the deficiencies and dangers of the Novus Ordo Missae and the errors of Vatican II, to say nothing of offering direct criticism of the words and deeds of the pope.

That’s pretty much it, folks. I wish there was something more honorable to the story, but there really isn’t.

The Michael Voris who had no problem calling attention to the Council’s landmines, and who gave the SSPX a fair hearing in light of the crisis in the Church, and who used to count guys like me, Chris Ferrara, Michael Matt, and John Vennari as friends, didn’t undergo some sort of “Road to Damascus” experience en route to the present day wherein he plays prosecutor, judge and jury in condemning the whole lot; rather, some guy with deep pockets bought him a building.

So, if you’re getting sick and tired of CMTV hurling calumnies in the direction of the SSPX and other defenders of tradition, you have two choices; either ignore their talking head altogether or buy him a bigger building, ‘cause that, my friends, is how Michael Voris rolls.


If this is accurate, then unfortunately CM is not going anywhere unless Carroll and others run out of money. If the motive here is not to build a thriving solvent business, but to push a particular agenda, then it's a successful business even if not financially so. The limit will only be the quantity of money the investors are willing to lose before they pull out. If their motive is ideological, it might be several more million.
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#29
I know from comments left on various articles that lots of people are cancelling their subscriptions. It began last year with the attacks on Fr McLucas and the Society. I wonder how much money Carroll is willing to burn because of his unChristian hatred of the SSPX?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#30
(05-08-2020, 07:34 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I know from comments left on various articles that lots of people are cancelling their subscriptions. It began last year with the attacks on Fr McLucas and the Society. I wonder how much money Carroll is willing to burn because of his unChristian hatred of the SSPX?

Sadly, from what people I know who know him have suggested, the tap is open as long as the bank account is in the black.

From public records CM had in 2018 a $2 million revenue, but they also had about 35 staff from an NCR report of the same time. If their average employee earned $40,000 (which is very low for that kind of business), that'd be nearly 2/3 of their revenue. That doesn't include travel or any business expenses, the cost of depreciation on their studio, equipment and other costs, which surely are far more than payroll (or would be in any normal business).

The number simply don't add up, so they must have a great deal of assets to draw on, and if they clearly would have had to do than in 2018, and subscriptions are way down since then, it certainly looks like they have a tap of reserves.

It also makes it seem even more that they don't care about the business model working, but about the agenda they're pushing, and seeing that video clip of Michael (embedded below) who is asking tough but clearly fair questions and not pro-SSPX, but also not anti-SSPX in that interview, I think it is very clear Louie's thesis is correct, and also, if so, that as long as the tank is full, the tap will be on.

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