Fatima Family Holy Hour For The Church
#11
(05-14-2020, 09:52 PM)CF Mathews Wrote:
(05-14-2020, 03:13 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: ...The Litany of Our Lady of Fatima is not an approved Litany, and at best could be used for private recitation (not public recitation, and that includes recitation with others). That does not mean it is a bad prayer. There are many private Litanies, I even say the Litany of Humility often, it is a great prayer, but it cannot be used in public (i.e. with others).

Secondly, prayers when published for public use need to be given an approval by the Church. When it's just common prayers, that might seem pedantic, and clearly there could be an easy exception, else a handout for a Procession at church would be illegal, but certainly when prayers that are not common, or even novel things are published, it should at least before publication be approved by a priest, and if circulated for wide use, one's local bishop (or the equivalent). That's part of being "faithful to the Holy Father" which the site takes pains to reiterate a disturbingly large number of times, as if anytime we mention Pope Francis, we need to remind everyone that we're faithful. I'd guess 90% of people here, or even in the traditional movement were, so it's a bit odd.

I'd like to add, as per text below, it seems you are incorrect about "public" vs. "private" prayer.  There should be no problem with including this litany.  As for privately written prayer, there should be no problem with that either.  Catholics are free to scrutinize the theology and raise any issues of concern, by any prayer put out by an organization, but they do not have to be officially approved.  It is no different from someone in a prayer group saying a spontaneous prayer.  This is my understanding.  If someone wants to correct me, please provide a reliable source.

From New Advent's Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The classification of private and public prayer is made to denote distinction between the prayer of the individual, whether in or out of the presence of others, for his or for others needs, and all prayer offered officially or liturgically whether in public or in secret, as when a priest recites the Divine Office outside of choir. All the liturgical prayers of the Church are public, as are all the prayers which one in sacred orders offers in his ministerial capacity. These public prayers are usually offered in places set apart for this purpose, in churches or chapels, just as in the Old Law they were offered in the Temple and in the synagogue. Special times are appointed for them: the hours for the various parts of the daily Office, days of rogation or of vigil, seasons of Advent and Lent; and occasions of special need, affliction, thanksgiving, jubilee, on the part of all, or of large numbers of the faithful."

I failed to address the issue of being faithful to the Holy Father.  You claim it is said "a disturbingly large number of times."  It is mentioned once on the home page.  This is very important to make clear to people, so there is no confusion about where the organization stands. 

Text given above is the last paragraph on this page:
 https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm

I did not make a distinction between public and private prayer.

I made a distinction between prayers published for public and private use.

As regards the straw man you make (likely unintentionally) : Only prayers which are liturgical are "public" in the sense that they are the prayer of the Church Herself, and to be liturgical they must be lead by one who is duly appointed as a minister through Orders, and so authorized to pray on behalf of the entire church. All others, even your Rosary are "private" prayers.

However, there is also a distinction between private devotions on those which may be used by groups, and recited publicly (i.e. in groups, not as liturgical prayer) and those which are approved only for private (i.e. individual) use.

Among the former are the Rosary, many other chaplets, and various common devotions and prayers. Among the latter (for individual or private use only) are prayers for the canonization of persons (so to avoid creating a public cult or public prayer to them), and a variety of other prayers like one of my favorites—Cardinal Merry del Val's Litany of Humility. All of these are approved by the Church, given the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, but restricted to individual recitation, and not to be used publicly.

What you have presented seems to be a prayer which is created out of other prayers and assembled together. That is fine for an ad hoc prayer group meeting in a place to pray. It is quite a different thing to create these, and then distributet hem widely, seemingly without any approval of any bishop or authority in the Church.

That is a serious violation of Canon Law.

I'm sure you were probably unaware of this, and therefore not culpable for this. Now you know that publishing a prayer leaflet in a public forum (whether it's a physical book or not), it needs the approval of your local bishop.

If you want to use this within your own prayer group at your church or home, that's fine, but to publish it—that is the issue.
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#12
(05-14-2020, 11:18 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(05-14-2020, 10:23 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: I think the internet is probably exempt from this.  That is my sincere opinion.  I have never seen anything that said you can't write your own prayer on your own website.  I think it should be fine, as long as you are not claiming it is official.

By what logic would a prayer I wrote and had printed, thus available only to those I could distribute the leaflet to, require approval, but one I wrote and put on the net, thus making it available to anyone in the world with an internet connection, NOT require approval?
Sorry took so long to reply.  I maintain a disagreement with you.
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#13
(05-17-2020, 04:25 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-14-2020, 09:52 PM)CF Mathews Wrote:
(05-14-2020, 03:13 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: ...The Litany of Our Lady of Fatima is not an approved Litany, and at best could be used for private recitation (not public recitation, and that includes recitation with others). That does not mean it is a bad prayer. There are many private Litanies, I even say the Litany of Humility often, it is a great prayer, but it cannot be used in public (i.e. with others).

Secondly, prayers when published for public use need to be given an approval by the Church. When it's just common prayers, that might seem pedantic, and clearly there could be an easy exception, else a handout for a Procession at church would be illegal, but certainly when prayers that are not common, or even novel things are published, it should at least before publication be approved by a priest, and if circulated for wide use, one's local bishop (or the equivalent). That's part of being "faithful to the Holy Father" which the site takes pains to reiterate a disturbingly large number of times, as if anytime we mention Pope Francis, we need to remind everyone that we're faithful. I'd guess 90% of people here, or even in the traditional movement were, so it's a bit odd.

I'd like to add, as per text below, it seems you are incorrect about "public" vs. "private" prayer.  There should be no problem with including this litany.  As for privately written prayer, there should be no problem with that either.  Catholics are free to scrutinize the theology and raise any issues of concern, by any prayer put out by an organization, but they do not have to be officially approved.  It is no different from someone in a prayer group saying a spontaneous prayer.  This is my understanding.  If someone wants to correct me, please provide a reliable source.

From New Advent's Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The classification of private and public prayer is made to denote distinction between the prayer of the individual, whether in or out of the presence of others, for his or for others needs, and all prayer offered officially or liturgically whether in public or in secret, as when a priest recites the Divine Office outside of choir. All the liturgical prayers of the Church are public, as are all the prayers which one in sacred orders offers in his ministerial capacity. These public prayers are usually offered in places set apart for this purpose, in churches or chapels, just as in the Old Law they were offered in the Temple and in the synagogue. Special times are appointed for them: the hours for the various parts of the daily Office, days of rogation or of vigil, seasons of Advent and Lent; and occasions of special need, affliction, thanksgiving, jubilee, on the part of all, or of large numbers of the faithful."

I failed to address the issue of being faithful to the Holy Father.  You claim it is said "a disturbingly large number of times."  It is mentioned once on the home page.  This is very important to make clear to people, so there is no confusion about where the organization stands. 

Text given above is the last paragraph on this page:
 https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm

I did not make a distinction between public and private prayer.

I made a distinction between prayers published for public and private use.

As regards the straw man you make (likely unintentionally) : Only prayers which are liturgical are "public" in the sense that they are the prayer of the Church Herself, and to be liturgical they must be lead by one who is duly appointed as a minister through Orders, and so authorized to pray on behalf of the entire church. All others, even your Rosary are "private" prayers.

However, there is also a distinction between private devotions on those which may be used by groups, and recited publicly (i.e. in groups, not as liturgical prayer) and those which are approved only for private (i.e. individual) use.

Among the former are the Rosary, many other chaplets, and various common devotions and prayers. Among the latter (for individual or private use only) are prayers for the canonization of persons (so to avoid creating a public cult or public prayer to them), and a variety of other prayers like one of my favorites—Cardinal Merry del Val's Litany of Humility. All of these are approved by the Church, given the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, but restricted to individual recitation, and not to be used publicly.

What you have presented seems to be a prayer which is created out of other prayers and assembled together. That is fine for an ad hoc prayer group meeting in a place to pray. It is quite a different thing to create these, and then distributet hem widely, seemingly without any approval of any bishop or authority in the Church.

That is a serious violation of Canon Law.

I'm sure you were probably unaware of this, and therefore not culpable for this. Now you know that publishing a prayer leaflet in a public forum (whether it's a physical book or not), it needs the approval of your local bishop.

If you want to use this within your own prayer group at your church or home, that's fine, but to publish it—that is the issue.
Sorry took so long to reply.  I do not agree with your argument.
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#14
(05-14-2020, 10:30 PM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote: Now I don't know what to think. I have been looking for something along these lines for some time now.
Sorry took so long to respond.  I will be doing another Holy Hour this Saturday, but will not post it on here.  I maintain a disagreement with the people who have expressed concern.  If you continue to be confused, I encourage you to discuss it with a good priest.  I do hope you participate this weekend with your family!
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#15
(06-11-2020, 12:04 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: I maintain a disagreement with the people who have expressed concern.  If you continue to be confused, I encourage you to discuss it with a good priest.  I do hope you participate this weekend with your family!

What I posted wad more-or-less the substance of what I got from consulting a traditional Catholic priest over the question...

I understand you don't like those arguments presented, but, in fairness if you cannot answer them, then you ought not assume they are wrong or act as if they are.
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#16
(06-11-2020, 02:05 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-11-2020, 12:04 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: I maintain a disagreement with the people who have expressed concern.  If you continue to be confused, I encourage you to discuss it with a good priest.  I do hope you participate this weekend with your family!

What I posted wad more-or-less the substance of what I got from consulting a traditional Catholic priest over the question...

I understand you don't like those arguments presented, but, in fairness if you cannot answer them, then you ought not assume they are wrong or act as if they are.
I believe I have answered them quite well.  This has nothing to do with what I like or don't like.  You need to make a better argument if you wish to sway me.  Having had a conversation with a priest simply is not convincing enough.  I will be consulting http://www.askthecanonlawyer.com/ and will post their reply.  If that doesn't settle it, I have nothing more to add.
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#17
(06-11-2020, 03:21 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: I believe I have answered them quite well.

You did not address a single point.

You posted a portion of a Catholic Encyclopedia article about liturgical prayer, which is not what we were addressing. I pointed out the distinction (which I learned in the seminary), and you never made any response to that except this last one, that you disagreed.

So unless you call silence "answering quite well" then you have not done so.

(06-11-2020, 03:21 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: You need to make a better argument if you wish to sway me.

So, Canon Law isn't enough?

https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2019/01/03/...mprimatur/

As Cathi Cardy, JCL (a Canon Lawyer) writes there :

Quote:As a general rule, if a Catholic has written a book on the Catholic faith, it is his own diocesan bishop who should be approached for the necessary permission/approval c. 824), and it is the bishop’s permission/approval which constitutes the imprimatur—meaning "it may be printed"—that is mentioned in Neil’s question (more on that in a moment). This requirement applies to the prayer books which Neil asks about; they are specifically mentioned in canon 826.3. And if a church wishes to sell Catholic books or give them away for free, the books must either have been published with permission from the competent ecclesiastical authority, or have been approved by that authority after printing.

In fairness, the question address books, but publishing one's own prayers on the Internet is even more likely to give such access without the supervision of the Church, so if Canon 826 §3 requires that a prayer book that you write or publish be approved by your bishop, then a fortiori for an internet site, which is much easier to manipulate after publication to include non-approved things.

(06-11-2020, 03:21 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: Having had a conversation with a priest simply is not convincing enough.

Interesting double standard. You advise someone if they disagree with you to consult a priest. I do, and because it doesn't agree with you, it's "simply not convincing enough."

(06-11-2020, 03:21 PM)CF Mathews Wrote: I will be consulting http://www.askthecanonlawyer.com/ and will post their reply.  If that doesn't settle it, I have nothing more to add.

By "settle it" do you mean, agree with you?

I mean by that question, if you are told that this is not permitted, will you seek permission or stop promoting it until you have that permission, or just keep doing what you'd like to do? If the former, good. If the latter, then I'd suggest that this is just self-justification, and certainly not the spirit of Fatima. I do hope it's the former.

I would think Cathy was sufficient, since she's a Canon Lawyer, and so is the priest to whom I spoke, but you are welcome to present it to a third Canon Lawyer, noting that two already agree on the point.

Be sure to present the case correctly, however. Tell this person that you have assembled and written prayers and are publishing them on the internet and promoting their use. Ask if you need your bishop's permission for this according to Canon 826 §3.
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#18
(06-11-2020, 02:05 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What you have presented seems to be a prayer which is created out of other prayers and assembled together.
My own prayers on this Holy Hour are strictly my own words.
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#19
(06-11-2020, 03:48 PM)CF Mathews Wrote:
(06-11-2020, 02:05 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What you have presented seems to be a prayer which is created out of other prayers and assembled together.
My own prayers on this Holy Hour are strictly my own words.

Which is why, if promoting these words, you need the Church's approval for this to publish it.

You cannot simply make up your own prayers and circulate them around without approval. That is directly contrary to Canon 826 §3.
[-] The following 1 user Likes MagisterMusicae's post:
  • CF Mathews
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#20
(06-11-2020, 04:15 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-11-2020, 03:48 PM)CF Mathews Wrote:
(06-11-2020, 02:05 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What you have presented seems to be a prayer which is created out of other prayers and assembled together.
My own prayers on this Holy Hour are strictly my own words.

Which is why, if promoting these words, you need the Church's approval for this to publish it.

You cannot simply make up your own prayers and circulate them around without approval. That is directly contrary to Canon 826 §3.
Woops I accidentally liked your post:)  I do not think the internet applies, but we will see what the canon lawyer says.  It is an interesting discussion.
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