When people say, "The Church".
#1
It's kind of hard to nail down what people mean when they say it.  Protestants say it, but I don't think they mean the same thing as when Catholics say it.  I'm guessing they use the term in Eastern Orthodox churches as well, but I'm not sure. 

When Catholics say it, I think of a community of believers, worldwide, who share the Catholic faith and are in communion with the pope. A romantic notion, I know. 

From what I can see, there's a lot of variation in what Catholics think those beliefs are, exactly.  It seems modern bishops and priests don't see eye to eye, even on core dogmas.  And when I read about the saints and bishops of years gone by, I don't see a lot of agreement with modern clergy. 

As for communion with the pope... I don't have a clue on what he believes.  Maybe some variation on liberation theology and something about all religions are good to go.  He's not real clear on letting us know. 

If you have a clear, concise definition of the term, please let me know.
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#2
The best definition I can give is: The Church is the Body of Christ, comprised of the Church Militant (the living), the Church Suffering (those in the state of Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven).
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Mon Coeur a la dame,
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#3
Quote:A romantic notion, I know.

That's lovely. ;-)
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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#4
Baltimore Catechism #4:

115 Q. What is the Church?
A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of
Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful
pastors under one visible head.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#5
(05-23-2020, 10:19 AM)jack89 Wrote: It's kind of hard to nail down what people mean when they say it.  Protestants say it, but I don't think they mean the same thing as when Catholics say it.  I'm guessing they use the term in Eastern Orthodox churches as well, but I'm not sure. 

When Catholics say it, I think of a community of believers, worldwide, who share the Catholic faith and are in communion with the pope. A romantic notion, I know. 

From what I can see, there's a lot of variation in what Catholics think those beliefs are, exactly.  It seems modern bishops and priests don't see eye to eye, even on core dogmas.  And when I read about the saints and bishops of years gone by, I don't see a lot of agreement with modern clergy. 

As for communion with the pope... I don't have a clue on what he believes.  Maybe some variation on liberation theology and something about all religions are good to go.  He's not real clear on letting us know. 

If you have a clear, concise definition of the term, please let me know.

I agree - there is just not much clarity.  I have asked this before as well.  Are protestants part of the Church or not??  I find current Catholic positions at odds with older ones, and such a mix of beliefs on some things.  

One thing I ran smack into is the Charismatic Renewal.  It's shunned by the Orthodox, and conservative protestants - but the RCC including the Vatican has endorsed it.  But it is so full of nonsense it's embarrassing that Church leaders promote it.  Either it's false or the RCC is false - because it came from protestantism where supposedly the Spirit was working in a way He wasn't in the RCC.  

The pope is a heretic on multiple issues according to guys with higher pedigrees than mine - bishops, theologians, etc.  Am I in communion with him???  I can no longer pray for his intentions - I know this.
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#6
(05-23-2020, 11:09 PM)Markie Boy Wrote:  I can no longer pray for his intentions - I know this.

From a post on my blog:

Since praying for the Pope's intentions is a requirement for receiving a plenary indulgence, it is very important to know what we need to pray for. Several months ago I shared a post from One Peter Five, What We Pray For When We Pray For the Intentions of the Holy Father, in which the following is pointed out,

Quote:When we pray generically for the intentions of the Holy Father, we know that four specific, objective intentions are prayed for every time. From the Raccolta, a collection of indulgences that used to be published by the Sacred Congregation of Indulgences:
23. The Pope’s intention always includes the following objects:
i. The progress of the Faith and triumph of the Church.
ii. Peace and union among Christian Princes and Rulers.
iii. The conversion of sinners.
iv. The uprooting of heresy.
Thus, no matter what the published 'intentions' are, we can pray for the Pope's intentions, knowing that we are praying for Catholic ends.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
  “Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'


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#7
(05-23-2020, 11:32 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Thus, no matter what the published 'intentions' are, we can pray for the Pope's intentions, knowing that we are praying for Catholic ends.

While this is comforting, it seems a bit dishonest.  I can't help thinking a pick and choose approach to the Pope's intentions is just a way to fool ourselves into thinking we're checking that box.  It seems deceptive, a way to placate our consciences. 

Per Catechism of Pope Saint Piux X -
62 Q.How should every Catholic act towards the Pope?
A.Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

To discount the Pope's published intentions indicates that your not "united with him mind and heart."  

I struggle with with this but try to be honest with myself and listen to my conscience.  Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong and one day I'll look back and realize that's the case, but right now I don't see it.
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#8
(05-24-2020, 11:16 AM)jack89 Wrote:
(05-23-2020, 11:32 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Thus, no matter what the published 'intentions' are, we can pray for the Pope's intentions, knowing that we are praying for Catholic ends.

While this is comforting, it seems a bit dishonest.  I can't help thinking a pick and choose approach to the Pope's intentions is just a way to fool ourselves into thinking we're checking that box.  It seems deceptive, a way to placate our consciences. 

Per Catechism of Pope Saint Piux X -
62 Q.How should every Catholic act towards the Pope?
A.Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

To discount the Pope's published intentions indicates that your not "united with him mind and heart."  

I struggle with with this but try to be honest with myself and listen to my conscience.  Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong and one day I'll look back and realize that's the case, but right now I don't see it.

You are right on Jack.  I can't consider this pope my teacher or father.  I don't buy what he teaches.  We are not united in heart.  Period.  He's a modernist, and in all reality we don't know what he is.  

Any person that speaks like he does, I'm not united with.  At some point we must be like Paul and oppose Peter to his face, otherwise you become a yes man for your check mark.  That's what got us in the boat in the first place, allowing our local pastors to operate like this, and eventually this becomes the norm if nobody opposes it.
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#9
(05-23-2020, 10:19 AM)jack89 Wrote: It's kind of hard to nail down what people mean when they say it.  Protestants say it, but I don't think they mean the same thing as when Catholics say it.  I'm guessing they use the term in Eastern Orthodox churches as well, but I'm not sure. 

When Catholics say it, I think of a community of believers, worldwide, who share the Catholic faith and are in communion with the pope. A romantic notion, I know. 

From what I can see, there's a lot of variation in what Catholics think those beliefs are, exactly.  It seems modern bishops and priests don't see eye to eye, even on core dogmas.  And when I read about the saints and bishops of years gone by, I don't see a lot of agreement with modern clergy. 

As for communion with the pope... I don't have a clue on what he believes.  Maybe some variation on liberation theology and something about all religions are good to go.  He's not real clear on letting us know. 

If you have a clear, concise definition of the term, please let me know.

You're going to get that sort of impression when your rolling in these neck of the woods and with dirt traveling as fast as it does. It doesn't take into account the vastness of Bishops that do agree or that unlike other Christian denominations there is a mechanism in place to resolve issues no matter how messy it may look.

Just look back at history and you'll always see Catholics arguing about something. The issues are deep and must be had but you know what is amazing [and quite frankly a miracle]? They've managed to stay intact, and that is no small task. That can't be human.

As for a definition of the Church:

The Church Always Visible

3. And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of rime, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority. And, when He had invoked upon them from Heaven the Spirit of Truth, He bade them go through the whole world and faithfully preach to all nations, what He had taught and what He had commanded, so that by the profession of His doctrine, and the observance of His laws, the human race might attain to holiness on earth and never-ending happiness in Heaven. In this wise, and on this principle, the Church was begotten. If we consider the chief end of His Church and the proximate efficient causes of salvation, it is undoubtedly spiritual; but in regard to those who constitute it, and to the things which lead to these spiritual gifts, it is external and necessarily visible. The Apostles received a mission to teach by visible and audible signs, and they discharged their mission only by words and acts which certainly appealed to the senses. So that their voices falling upon the ears of those who heard them begot faith in souls-"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the words of Christ" (Rom. x., 17). And faith itself - that is assent given to the first and supreme truth - though residing essentially in the intellect, must be manifested by outward profession-"For with the heart we believe unto justice, but with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. x., 10). In the same way in man, nothing is more internal than heavenly grace which begets sanctity, but the ordinary and chief means of obtaining grace are external: that is to say, the sacraments which are administered by men specially chosen for that purpose, by means of certain ordinances.

See more [Satis Cognitum]:

http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/e...nitum.html
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