What do Traditionalists think about Novus Ordo Catholics?
#1
I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)
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#2
Asking for a friend? OK. I belong to an ICKSP parish.

1) I disagree with many of the changes, but still get along fine with parishioners and priests. I'll attend a Novus Ordo Mass if I can't get to a Latin Mass.
2) My Church offers both, but mostly Latin Mass I would guess. No animosity that I've seen, but each group seems to prefer their own company.
3) Welcoming, but not overbearing in my experience. I was a Novus Ordo guy starting out. It was a little confusing at first, but I much prefer it now.

I find that Novus Ordo Masses wildly vary. Some are very nice and reverent, while others not so much.

Cheers and God Bless.
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#3
(06-01-2020, 01:37 PM)jack89 Wrote: Asking for a friend? OK. I belong to an ICKSP parish.

1) I disagree with many of the changes, but still get along fine with parishioners and priests. I'll attend a Novus Ordo Mass if I can't get to a Latin Mass.
2) My Church offers both, but mostly Latin Mass I would guess. No animosity that I've seen, but each group seems to prefer their own company.
3) Welcoming, but not overbearing in my experience. I was a Novus Ordo guy starting out. It was a little confusing at first, but I much prefer it now.

I find that Novus Ordo Masses wildly vary. Some are very nice and reverent, while others not so much.

Cheers and God Bless.

Thank you! Yes, I'm asking for a friend. He's been attending sedevacantist churches but looking to leave. He's curious to hear how "regular" trads interact with those they do not agree with (because, in Sede churches everybody is "going to hell if they're not sede."
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#4
Some context, I'm a cradle traditional Catholic and have been attending SSPX chapels since the early 90's. Prior to that we were at a independent chapel where the priest eventually became sedevacantist (which was one of the reasons we left).  

1) I see the current state of affairs as a true crisis of Faith which stems from pre-Vatican II liberties of thought and liturgical experimentation which went largely unchecked. Vatican II, in its ambiguities and in its implementation, as well as the New Mass opened the Church to many Modernist concepts (see Pascendi Domenici of St Pius X) resulting in a reorientation of the Church's mission of teaching and worship from God-centered to man-centered. 

As far as my attitude towards those who attend the NO, patience and charity. As most polls and surveys since VII reveal, many NO Catholics don't even believe in some of the fundamental truths of our Faith anymore.  This can also be said for many prelates and priests. I believe this is a direct consequence of my above points. I pray for the Church, the pope, her pastors and my fellow Catholics. I know that if God had not placed me in a traditional Catholic family I would not have made it to the true understanding of the Faith. How can I judge others when I know I would have done worse in their situation?

2) I will not attend a NO parish. Primarily, I have young children and they have only known the Latin Mass. I have attended NO Masses several times throughout my life and I am not comfortable exposing my children to what would be a scandal to them. I don't have a problem with FSSP or ICKSP but we've always been near an SSPX chapel so I attend there.  

3) A newcomer is always welcome. At the SSPX chapel in northern CO where I attend now we have seen several new faces due to COVID. Unfortunately, the restrictions on socializing have hampered interaction with anyone new. There have been some places where some people have had a misguided sense of propriety. 

At one chapel many years ago, a family of four came in before Mass and sat in the front pew, the only open one. They were dressed well but obviously not used to a traditional Mass.  The ladies were in pant-suits and wore no veils. An overzealous usher self-righteously grabbed a couple spare veils, marched to the front and presented the ladies with the veils requesting in a audible voice that they put them on. 

I think it's safe to say that it is unlikely that your friend will encounter such trad-cat "Karens" these days. Just know that this is not reflective of Latin Mass goers in general.
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#5
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)

I'm an SSPX guy.

1. As possibly better Catholics than I, but like all of us, victims like of bad churchmen humanizing our Faith, and if better Catholics than I, being so, despite that I've been given better gifts and would be far worse if I hadn't. If they are good Catholics, I see them as this, despite the disadvantages, which encourages me to try to make more of what I've received. I'd see my duty towards them as I would any other Catholic—to help them to save their souls and be a better Catholic—but of course I see that as best done by a return to the traditional liturgy and doctrines.

2. I'd say cognitive dissonance, but probably not willfully so. Either they are doing this because there is some greater value to this Tridentine Mass, and then why are they not only offering this Mass; or they are doing so because people asked for it, meaning their idea of religion is what the people want, which is not the Catholic understanding of religion. I imagine many are in good Faith and trying to do their best in this situation, but they do not see that the problems they want to solve are part and parcel with the new rite itself which teaches a new idea of the priesthood, the nature of the Mass, and ultimately lacks important didactic elements. In short, I think if these priests who do both rites were of good will and seeing the highest good, and gave the whole matter sufficient reflection and thought, they would discover a tension between their desire to offer both rites, and if honest could not but side with the traditional rite. I fear that most do not do this sufficient reflection and thought, however.

3. Outside of the crazies, I've never know any Latin Mass venue to be hostile, but very welcoming. I know where I have Mass the Legion of Mary makes a real effort every Sunday to greet newcomers and have a chat, but many others do as well, and the priest actively scolds anyone who presumes to chide such people or correct the manner of dress of visitors or such things.

Hope this helps.

Since you're asking, perhaps you could share your thoughts too? This is a forum after all, not just a question box.
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#6
(06-01-2020, 04:11 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)

I'm an SSPX guy.

1. As possibly better Catholics than I, but like all of us, victims like of bad churchmen humanizing our Faith, and if better Catholics than I, being so, despite that I've been given better gifts and would be far worse if I hadn't. If they are good Catholics, I see them as this, despite the disadvantages, which encourages me to try to make more of what I've received. I'd see my duty towards them as I would any other Catholic—to help them to save their souls and be a better Catholic—but of course I see that as best done by a return to the traditional liturgy and doctrines.

2. I'd say cognitive dissonance, but probably not willfully so. Either they are doing this because there is some greater value to this Tridentine Mass, and then why are they not only offering this Mass; or they are doing so because people asked for it, meaning their idea of religion is what the people want, which is not the Catholic understanding of religion. I imagine many are in good Faith and trying to do their best in this situation, but they do not see that the problems they want to solve are part and parcel with the new rite itself which teaches a new idea of the priesthood, the nature of the Mass, and ultimately lacks important didactic elements. In short, I think if these priests who do both rites were of good will and seeing the highest good, and gave the whole matter sufficient reflection and thought, they would discover a tension between their desire to offer both rites, and if honest could not but side with the traditional rite. I fear that most do not do this sufficient reflection and thought, however.

3. Outside of the crazies, I've never know any Latin Mass venue to be hostile, but very welcoming. I know where I have Mass the Legion of Mary makes a real effort every Sunday to greet newcomers and have a chat, but many others do as well, and the priest actively scolds anyone who presumes to chide such people or correct the manner of dress of visitors or such things.

Hope this helps.

Since you're asking, perhaps you could share your thoughts too? This is a forum after all, not just a question box.
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#7
1.I won't attend the Novus Ordo anymore, I've had it. I don't condemn people who attend the NO
 2.They're much better off in an exclusively Latin Mass parish.
 3.Very positive if you're coming because you want to attend the TLM.

    I have kind of mixed affiliations for a number of reasons, and so have connections to Latin Mass and UGCC parishes.
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#8
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)
1. I would say, for the most part, fondly.
2. On average? I would say they probably think it’s OK. A sede certainly wouldn’t think it’s OK, as it’s “part” of the “Novus Ordo”. Mind you, I would say most sedevacantists refer to the entire Church right now as the “Novus Ordo”. I assume they do this to convince others that the Church is no longer, well, the Church.
3. Welcoming, and delighted, in most cases, I would say.

I attend, and serve at, a Diocesan Latin Mass.
Before COVID I did, anyway!
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#9
My husband and I do not consider ourselves traditional Catholics, and if we were stationed somewhere else, we would probably attend NO Mass, however, we bounced around from parish to parish in our current diocese because were shocked by the way Mass was celebrated. We ended up driving 30 minutes to the nearest FSSP parish and found it so incredibly welcoming (and, more importantly, the Mass celebrated so reverently) that we registered there. People have been very kind and understanding to us as we’ve learned the ropes. Going to Mass feels like coming home, and I’m excited for my baby to grow up in this parish.

I wish your friend well.
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#10
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)

I predominantly attend SSPX, but I wouldn't say that I purely 'affiliate' with them. I will go to a diocesan TLM if I'm unable to make it to my local SSPX chapel, and there's a couple reverent NO Masses I will attend if I can't make it to a TLM at all, albeit, that's rare.

1. I think the Church we see today is a counterfeit Church obscuring the true Catholic Church. This does not mean I think the conciliar Church is a separate entity, or in schism, but that it teaches a watered-down version of the Catholic faith that has more in line with the general synchretic attitude toward religion as the secular powers. I think that many NO-only Catholics are being deceived and cheated of the fullness of the Catholic faith, much to the detriment of their souls. I find the Church in Her current state as tragic.
2. I think it's fine, and may provide the opportunity to those NO-only Catholics to experience the true Mass and I applaud those parishes and diocese that have the TLM available. It would be better if it were more widely available, my own diocese only has two parishes that offer TLM, plus the one SSPX chapel I attend.
3. It really depends. There's good Catholics and bad Catholics regardless of which liturgy they attend. My general experience has been warm and welcoming, with my current SSPX chapel being a step above other parishes I've been to. That said, I'm not the most openly social guy, and don't really like to chat, but those I have spoken with have been really great people at both diocesan and SSPX churches. That said, if you go into a TLM expecting the leniency of a NO Mass, you might upset some people (dress, conduct, etc.) For example, chatting in the Nave simply doesn't happen in the TLM churches I've been to, but is commonplace at the NO.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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