What do Traditionalists think about Novus Ordo Catholics?
#11
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)

I attend masses offered by the SSPX.

1) This depends. I don't believe there is such a thing as a Novus Ordo Church. I think there is the Church. That being said, I think that Catholics who are affiliated with the Novus Ordo mass and all that comes with that framework are generally very holy and peace-filled people. I will be the first to tell you that Tradition doesn't make you a saint just by your association with it. You have to integrate it into who you are. 

But I would agree with what MM said above. I think that if those same Catholics had the opportunites which I have then they would be holier individuals. And if I were in there position I would probably have squandered whatever grace I would have received (had I staid in the Novus Ordo, I think I would have either gone into schism, or apostatized.)

2) Generally, positively. It normally peeves me that the traditional Mass is always relegated to a second-class status. Awkward hours, on a Sunday afternoon, every 3rd Sunday out of the month, that sort of thing. But I will take what I can get. 

Usually, a lot of parish priests who offer the traditional Mass are sympathetic to traditional Catholic priestly societies. The only thing that concerns me will be the faithfulness of the preacher in the homily or confessional. Nothing against the priest, but bad seminary training can have deep roots.

3) Almost always positive. I can only think of one negative experience I had at an SSPX chapel. I think that it was mostly miscommunication on my part, and maybe a little bit of rudeness. I will add that this experience had a language barrier and there may have been cultural faux-pas on my part. But generally, all are welcome. The Catholic Church is for everyone to come to know Jesus Christ, not just the perfect.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#12
We attend a Diocesan Latin Masses.  In my experience, they tend to be a bit more normal there.  (By normal, I mean that my children are welcomed joyfully.)
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#13
(06-01-2020, 02:23 PM)traditiovivens Wrote: Prior to that we were at a independent chapel where the priest eventually became sedevacantist (which was one of the reasons we left).  

I hope you don't mind me asking asking, but what is an independent chapel? Are they schismatic but not sedevacantist? Either or? I take it that it means they are independent from Rome.
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#14
(06-03-2020, 04:47 AM)MiserereMei2 Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 02:23 PM)traditiovivens Wrote: Prior to that we were at a independent chapel where the priest eventually became sedevacantist (which was one of the reasons we left).  

I hope you don't mind me asking asking, but what is an independent chapel? Are they schismatic but not sedevacantist? Either or? I take it that it means they are independent from Rome.

Sorry, I think it would have been more clear to say "independent priest".

He refused to say the New Mass and retired from his diocese. At first he was "independent from Rome," as you put it, and not associated with any other traditional group. Over time he became de facto sedevacantist. He had many health issues and suffered from several strokes which seemed to coincide with his move to sedevacantism.
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#15
(06-01-2020, 01:03 PM)redrose85 Wrote: I'm asking this for a friend... I know what my own opinion is, but curious how others perceive it.

1) How does the average Trad Catholic look upon the Novus Ordo Church (and Novus Ordo Catholics) ?
2) How does the average Trad Catholic look at Novus Ordo Churches that *also* offer a Latin Mass ?
3) What kind of reception/attitude can somebody who's new to Tradition/Latin Mass expect to find at a typical Latin Mass parish?


Please comment with your own church affiliation (FSSP, SSPX, sede, etc). :)

FSSP

1. The post V2 Church has a bad case of amnesia. Certainly the New Mass and sacraments are valid, but they only that. I'd imagine that the vast majority of NO Catholics simply don't realize what's missing (although I think most realize something's off which is why so many leave).

2. It's better than no Latin Mass at all, but the center of gravity of a parish will swing toward one or the other. Either the NO will start looking more like the TLM or vice versa. I've seen both. So while it's a good thing because it introduces more people to the TLM, ultimately it's an untenable position. As MM said, cognitive dissonance. My wife and I are looking to relocate a few years down the road and the one hard line I've set is that we're not moving somewhere without a parish that does the TLM exclusively.

3. At our current FSSP Parish, a very warm one. We live in a somewhat touristy area near the beach so there's always an influx of vacationers during the summertime, often seemingly those who just picked the most convenient Mass having no idea what the Latin Mass is. There's also a large military presence in the area so many of the families at the parish come and go due to that. Our Legion of Mary chapter is very proactive about talking to people and welcoming them in, and generally we have a very good and welcoming community.
Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomine Tuo da gloriam.
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#16
(06-03-2020, 08:15 AM)traditiovivens Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 04:47 AM)MiserereMei2 Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 02:23 PM)traditiovivens Wrote: Prior to that we were at a independent chapel where the priest eventually became sedevacantist (which was one of the reasons we left).  

I hope you don't mind me asking asking, but what is an independent chapel? Are they schismatic but not sedevacantist? Either or? I take it that it means they are independent from Rome.

Sorry, I think it would have been more clear to say "independent priest".

He refused to say the New Mass and retired from his diocese. At first he was "independent from Rome," as you put it, and not associated with any other traditional group. Over time he became de facto sedevacantist. He had many health issues and suffered from several strokes which seemed to coincide with his move to sedevacantism.

Ah, thanks. Until the lockdown I assisted at a mass with a retired priest saying the TLM.  Although the archbishop asked him to do so. He was sort of an ambassador of the Latin mass saying it in multiple parishes throughout the week. His homilies were also a cut above as he used to teach theology at university before he got an assignment to say public mass and was one of the few who had never said the new mass. Hopefully he can do so after the lockdown ends but his retirement home may not allow him to leave for some time. I miss the old guy a lot,  he's a tal character. As it stands now we only have one parish in the entire archdiocese that says it. Though they have the latin mass six days a week excluding Saturday for some reason.
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#17
(06-03-2020, 06:29 PM)MiserereMei2 Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 08:15 AM)traditiovivens Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 04:47 AM)MiserereMei2 Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 02:23 PM)traditiovivens Wrote: Prior to that we were at a independent chapel where the priest eventually became sedevacantist (which was one of the reasons we left).  

I hope you don't mind me asking asking, but what is an independent chapel? Are they schismatic but not sedevacantist? Either or? I take it that it means they are independent from Rome.

Sorry, I think it would have been more clear to say "independent priest".

He refused to say the New Mass and retired from his diocese. At first he was "independent from Rome," as you put it, and not associated with any other traditional group. Over time he became de facto sedevacantist. He had many health issues and suffered from several strokes which seemed to coincide with his move to sedevacantism.

Ah, thanks. Until the lockdown I assisted at a mass with a retired priest saying the TLM.  Although the archbishop asked him to do so. He was sort of an ambassador of the Latin mass saying it in multiple parishes throughout the week. His homilies were also a cut above as he used to teach theology at university before he got an assignment to say public mass and was one of the few who had never said the new mass. Hopefully he can do so after the lockdown ends but his retirement home may not allow him to leave for some time. I miss the old guy a lot,  he's a tal character. As it stands now we only have one parish in the entire archdiocese that says it. Though they have the latin mass six days a week excluding Saturday for some reason.

Hopefully the archdiocese sees the increased interest and expands the availability. You could sell it to them as a pastoral need. 

How has your diocese been on the COVID restrictions?  I attend SSPX so haven’t had too much to worry about as far as Communion or masks. Just social distancing and no socializing after Mass.
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#18
I'm in limbo......and have been for a couple of years. By limbo, I simply mean that I'm sympathetic toward many of the plights that are noted by the Trads. Many of them don't even require much of an explanation, we all see the messiness many of the NO parishes are in and the lack of leadership in them. I attend NO mainly but visit a Byzantine, SSPX, and FSSP parishes from time to time. I'm more attracted to those forms, that's for sure, but I'm sort of stuck, however. Not entirely on purpose but things that I'm trying to work through. Like I'm not entirely convinced things were just fine prior to V2. Ottaviani even alludes to it more than once in his famous letter. And I know many aren't necessarily saying that, but it's important to note what exactly was going on prior to V2. What forces were at play? And I don't think it can all be explained via the freemasons either. It's complex and although it's not an attempt to excuse the Church's flawed response to it all, it does point to a reality that if you took away the freemasons and took away Vatican 2, you'd still be left with questions. 

The other side of this is I don't have a full grasp to what extent does the form of the Mass becomes detrimental. That isn't as obvious to me and I'm perfectly fine with that being a "ME" problem. I just can't mesh with how the East (as an example) can consider some parts of worship more reverent than others and have the West completely disagree. Why is that a perfect and legitimate "live and let live" sort of approach but not with a properly run NO mass (as it was originally intended)? I don't get it.

In process......
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