Obligated to go to NO Mass?
#11
(06-14-2020, 07:28 PM)br__Allen Wrote: We need to ask the question as to whether or no the NO is a sin to attend. Though it is clearly inferior and implicitly protestant, there is nothing in the liturgy that is explicitly protestant. According to Fr. Ripp, papal infallibility prevents any officially mass promulgated thought the pope's authority to be sinful when followed according to the rubrics. This does not mean that the implicit effects will not be damaging to some people's faith.

Problems with that claim of Fr Ripperger :

1. The GIRM or "rubrics"—if they can even be called this—leave so many options that there are no real "rules" beyond some very basic things.

2. Even these basic rules are widely violated, so practically no Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated "according to the rubrics".

3. Infallibility does not seem to apply, since infallibly prevents the Pope from binding the Universal Church to profess an error in Morals or Faith. The Novus Ordo Liturgy is for the Latin Church.

4. The argument would apply to the original edition promulgated by the Pope. There is no such thing, since the Consilium, not the Pope published and promoted the Novus Ordo Mass, without specific Papal promulgation. Even if we were to argue that did happen, somehow, and infallibility applied then at best it would apply to the original Latin edition, not to any translations or variations, which is essentially what every Novus Ordo Mass, save perhaps a handful in the entire world, is.

So, I simply don't find this a good argument, and it has no basis in any solid traditional theology.

But that really has very little to do with the sin question, which is ultimately one of danger to the Faith. Even if we were to suggest that Novus Ordo Mass celebrated perfectly "according to the rubrics" (whatever this means) was not itself a danger to the Faith, then it will still come down to the particular implementation. What is being preached? Orthodox Catholicism or Liberal errors? What is done at Mass? Sacrilegious actions or ones that edify? How is the Blessed Sacrament treated? As Sacred and to be revered or as a cracker that we pop in our mouth as common food?

Even the SSPX argues that the danger to one's Faith comes from the fact that the rite removes explicitly Catholic elements, and thus suggests Protestant notions, or at least allows these. It is perfectly possible that a priest add back in sufficient things to make it explicitly Catholic. It is quite easy, though, especially if the priest is malformed in his philosophy and theology, to not do this, or introduce deviations.

In any case, however, that was not what the OP was asking.
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#12
(06-14-2020, 06:21 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: Thanks for taking the time to answer. Sorry, I thought I was being specific when I described the restrictions of the ones that are happening near me. (Parking lot, 40% capacity, masks, distancing, CITH, NO).

Yes, I understand that the general topic of NO Mass obligation has been thoroughly discussed. I was asking about it under the current circumstances.

If they are allowing only 40% capacity, are we obligated to go and see if we are able to get a space? Or is it still optional whether we go or not? That's my question, sorry for being somewhat unclear.

I don't see how the present circumstances would in any way affect your obligation.

If the bishop has dispensed the faithful, you do not have the obligation. If not, you do unless it is physically or morally impossible to attend.

If the church cannot fit you, that would be a physical impossibility.

If it is a danger to your Faith, that would be a moral impossibility.
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#13
(06-14-2020, 01:18 PM)LionHippo Wrote: That being said, I still do not buy the argument that somebody can miss Mass because it's harmful to their faith.  This confuses me, because on the one hand, Traditionalist Catholics seem to portray themselves as fierce warriors in the Church Militant valiantly fighting against Satan and his minions.  But then, apparently an hour spent at a Mass not to their liking is enough to crumble their faith.

If one puts their Faith in danger they commit a grave sin.

One cannot be obliged to commit a sin.

That's the issue.

The issue is not doing something "that is not to our liking". It is the our duty to avoid sin. To attend a liturgy which is sacrilegious or where the priest preaches against the Catholic Faith would be sinful.
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#14
(06-14-2020, 08:43 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If the church cannot fit you, that would be a physical impossibility.

OK, so it would be my obligation to go to the church(es) that are having 40%-capacity Masses every Sunday and see if they can fit me. If one can't, I'll have to look for another Mass at another time or place on Sundays. Maybe one or two NO Masses wouldn't hurt my faith, but I'm really not certain that three in a row wouldn't. I'll try it and see (ugh). The Bishop has stated that those with vulnerabilities to the virus are still exempt, and it's up to the individual to determine whether that's the case (or their fear). The way things have re-opened with so many stipulations and restrictions and allowances for certain judgment calls did not make it completely clear to me that we are absolutely obliged to return at this point. Thanks.
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#15
(06-14-2020, 10:01 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote:
(06-14-2020, 08:43 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If the church cannot fit you, that would be a physical impossibility.

OK, so it would be my obligation to go to the church(es) that are having 40%-capacity Masses every Sunday and see if they can fit me. If one can't, I'll have to look for another Mass at another time or place on Sundays. Maybe one or two NO Masses wouldn't hurt my faith, but I'm really not certain that three in a row wouldn't. I'll try it and see (ugh). The Bishop has stated that those with vulnerabilities to the virus are still exempt, and it's up to the individual to determine whether that's the case (or their fear). The way things have re-opened with so many stipulations and restrictions and allowances for certain judgment calls did not make it completely clear to me that we are absolutely obliged to return at this point. Thanks.

The bishop cannot make a valid decree that leaves you to decide if you are exempt. A law is an ordinance of reason, so it must be reasonable, but also understandable. You have to be able to know what you are obliged to do, and what you are not obliged to do, else it cannot bind you.

The obligation exists for everyone once the bishops has clearly lifted the previous dispensation. I'd bet that if you read the actual announcement, it would not say that there was an obligation now for all except the "vulnerable", and clearly if only 40% of the church can be occupied, unless most Masses are under 40% capacity some will miss out.

A vague law is not a proper law, so if there is doubt here (and it sounds like you could drive a truck through that gap in clarity and logic), you can probably hold yourself still exempt.
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#16
(06-14-2020, 08:43 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I'd bet that if you read the actual , it would not say that there was an obligation now for all except the "vulnerable", and clearly if only 40% of the church can be occupied, unless most Masses are under 40% capacity some will miss out.




Ah, yes, you’re right. I had originally read this part to mean only for those vulnerable people, but now I see it means for everyone. 

[b]Effective May 23, 2020[/b] I am lifting my suspension of public celebrations of the Liturgy in the Diocese of ... In the light of the continuing and specific danger presented by this virus to older people and those with certain health conditions, the obligation to take part in the Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation continues to be lifted.”

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#17
I'd have a hard time going to an NO Mass if it were my only option. NO kills my enthusiasm and makes me sad. I always end up pondering the loss of reverence and tradition more than I do God, distracting me from the beauty and mystery of the sacrifice, so you could argue that it's detrimental to personal faith. That said, some are definitely more tolerable than others. I think more conservative liturgies in foreign languages (i.e. the local Polish parish) are a good hedge - if there are abuses, you are less aware of them.
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#18
(06-14-2020, 08:49 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(06-14-2020, 01:18 PM)LionHippo Wrote: That being said, I still do not buy the argument that somebody can miss Mass because it's harmful to their faith.  This confuses me, because on the one hand, Traditionalist Catholics seem to portray themselves as fierce warriors in the Church Militant valiantly fighting against Satan and his minions.  But then, apparently an hour spent at a Mass not to their liking is enough to crumble their faith.

If one puts their Faith in danger they commit a grave sin.

One cannot be obliged to commit a sin.

That's the issue.

The issue is not doing something "that is not to our liking". It is the our duty to avoid sin. To attend a liturgy which is sacrilegious or where the priest preaches against the Catholic Faith would be sinful.

This sounds seriously diabolical. It's one thing to recognize that the NO is lacking and pointing out atrocious abuses, that horn has been tooted loud and clear.....everyone within miles around can hear it. But to tell people stay home and not attend Mass and refuse to participate and fulfill their Sunday obligation where our Lord still resides.......don't get it.........not one bit.

So your telling people they commit a grave sin by going, but yet they commit one by not going? 

I'm sorry but this sounds absolutely ridiculous.

I'd rather take an imperfect presentation, than none at all.

People aren't children where they crumble at the sight of anything disordered. 

I hope God will soften your hearts on this one because it really is incomprehensible.
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#19
(06-15-2020, 12:23 PM)Adventus Wrote: But to tell people stay home and not attend Mass and refuse to participate and fulfill their Sunday obligation where our Lord still resides.......don't get it.........not one bit.

So if the only Mass around is a Black Mass, you go, because our Lord is present?
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#20
When it comes to mass, I personally have a plan of action in that regard. Which option you choose depends on where you are and how far you are able to travel. In preferential order, you should if possible...

1. Go to the traditional latin mass at a (non-sedevacantist) traditionalist order (SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP).
2. Go to a diocesan latin mass.
3. Go to an eastern rite liturgy where the liturgy hasn't been modernized, such as the Ukranian Catholic Church.
4. Move, so that you are near one of the first 3
5. Go to as reverent of a Novus Ordo mass as you can find
6. Go to a bad Novus Ordo, sit in the back and pray the rosary

Now given that most Bishops, at least in the US, have temporarily abrogated the obligation to attend mass on Sunday, you can forgo going for the time being if you live in an area where the bishop has done this. Though even though the obligation to hear mass has been dispensed, you still need to obey the 3rd commandment, which means sanctifying Sunday. So if you don't go to mass on any given Sunday, say the Litany of the Saints or an extra rosary or something.

Now I can't stand the Novus Ordo and I agree it is harmful to the faith, however, I cannot and will not tell others not to go to it when the Sunday obligation is not dispensed if that is all they have access to.
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