Obligated to go to NO Mass?
#31
The decision not to attend the Ordinary Form Mass comes down to a personal decision, using primacy of conscience. Now it is obvious that the Church does not consider the OF Mass "sinful," so it is basically just the opinions of others - Fr. Ripperger, SSPX, whoever it may be, etc, used to justify this decision. It seems like it would take a lot to make the OF Mass objectively sinful, something like having a female "priest" say Mass or changing the words of consecration. Something much more egregious and blasphemous than bland music or mediocre homilies.

What does a TLM-only Traditionalist do while traveling to a new place, and no Latin Mass is available where they are staying, but an OF Mass is? By not going, they would basically concede to believing that the OF Mass in and of itself was sinful and therefore "harmful to their faith," and would not go. It may be one thing not to attend a particular parish because a priest constantly straddles the line of moral teachings, or permits things at Mass that are not allowed by the Church. But that is a specific situation where one can more plausibly recognize things that could be determined sinful and harmful to one's faith.
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#32
(06-17-2020, 10:31 PM)LionHippo Wrote: It seems like it would take a lot to make the OF Mass objectively sinful, something like having a female "priest" say Mass or changing the words of consecration.  Something much more egregious and blasphemous than bland music or mediocre homilies. 

I don't recall that anyone has said that the OF is 'objectively sinful' only that it can be a sin to attend it if it would harm your Faith. And, whilst I have never been present at a 'Mass' celebrated by a 'priestess', I have been present at Masses celebrated by men who changed the Words of Institution and I have witnessed invalid or illicit matter used on more than one occasion.
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#33
(06-17-2020, 10:47 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(06-17-2020, 10:31 PM)LionHippo Wrote: It seems like it would take a lot to make the OF Mass objectively sinful, something like having a female "priest" say Mass or changing the words of consecration.  Something much more egregious and blasphemous than bland music or mediocre homilies. 

I don't recall that anyone has said that the OF is 'objectively sinful' only that it can be a sin to attend it if it would harm your Faith. And, whilst I have never been present at a 'Mass' celebrated by a 'priestess', I have been present at Masses celebrated by men who changed the Words of Institution and I have witnessed invalid or illicit matter used on more than one occasion.
Your example seems to offer specific evidence of wrongdoing.  I would think the practical approach would be to use the "chain of command" as far as possible and practicable, i.e. working through the diocese / bishop.  Obviously this does not always or often happen, and someone would just attend a different parish.

It would seem that to fit the definition of "harmful to one's faith," someone would have to have knowledge of specific sinful acts / wrongdoing at Mass, and someone can avoid going to a certain parish or Mass celebrated by a specific priest.  Then, in many cases, one can just find another church to attend, without having to miss Mass completely.

That's why I asked what a TLM-only Catholic does when only the OF is available, e.g. they are traveling, or their FSSP / SSPX church is closed for a reason, etc.  Do they just outright avoid going to Mass without knowing anything specific about that parish?  If so, then that basically amounts to thinking the OF itself is harmful to the faith, and taking it upon one's own conscience to miss Mass.
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#34
(06-13-2020, 10:03 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: If some of the NO churches within driving distance have reopened on a limited basis (40% capacity, masks, “social distancing,” outdoors, parking lot... are we obligated to go if we can? I’m pretty sure CITH is another of the rules for now. This long absence from my usual TLM church hasn’t been great for my faith in some ways, and I cannot really stand the thought of going to an NO Mass under these circumstances. Even during normal times, the NO Mass was mostly a misery.

As you know, I too used to feel that way about the NO; that for me going to NO was mostly misery. But recent events (this unprecedented lockdown of the churches along with recent personal experiences), have given me a new perspective. The one thing that matters most is staying in a state of grace. I need the sacraments and I'll take any port in a storm. I'll do anything I can to help my family to be in a state of grace. These are serious times. Maybe pray on these questions:

Does it honor God for you to attend NO?

Are their graces to be had there?  

Is this best for your family to go?

If the answer is yes, then go!
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#35
(06-18-2020, 07:39 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 10:03 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: If some of the NO churches within driving distance have reopened on a limited basis (40% capacity, masks, “social distancing,” outdoors, parking lot... are we obligated to go if we can? I’m pretty sure CITH is another of the rules for now. This long absence from my usual TLM church hasn’t been great for my faith in some ways, and I cannot really stand the thought of going to an NO Mass under these circumstances. Even during normal times, the NO Mass was mostly a misery.

As you know, I too used to feel that way about the NO; that for me going to NO was mostly misery. But recent events (this unprecedented lockdown of the churches along with recent personal experiences), have given me a new perspective. The one thing that matters most is staying in a state of grace. I need the sacraments and I'll take any port in a storm. I'll do anything I can to help my family to be in a state of grace. These are serious times. Maybe pray on these questions:

Does it honor God for you to attend NO?

Are their graces to be had there?  

Is this best for your family to go?

If the answer is yes, then go!


Love you, Jaca! Been thinking about you. Hope all is well. XO
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#36
(06-18-2020, 01:44 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote:
(06-18-2020, 07:39 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote:
(06-13-2020, 10:03 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: If some of the NO churches within driving distance have reopened on a limited basis (40% capacity, masks, “social distancing,” outdoors, parking lot... are we obligated to go if we can? I’m pretty sure CITH is another of the rules for now. This long absence from my usual TLM church hasn’t been great for my faith in some ways, and I cannot really stand the thought of going to an NO Mass under these circumstances. Even during normal times, the NO Mass was mostly a misery.

As you know, I too used to feel that way about the NO; that for me going to NO was mostly misery. But recent events (this unprecedented lockdown of the churches along with recent personal experiences), have given me a new perspective. The one thing that matters most is staying in a state of grace. I need the sacraments and I'll take any port in a storm. I'll do anything I can to help my family to be in a state of grace. These are serious times. Maybe pray on these questions:

Does it honor God for you to attend NO?

Are their graces to be had there?  

Is this best for your family to go?

If the answer is yes, then go!


Love you, Jaca! Been thinking about you. Hope all is well. XO

Hope you and yours are doing okay, too! We're all okay here...Granny passed about a week ago, though. May her soul rest in peace.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#37
(06-18-2020, 04:40 PM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: Hope you and yours are doing okay, too! We're all okay here...Granny passed about a week ago, though. May her soul rest in peace.

Oh, I'm sorry for the loss of Granny. Glad to hear you're all doing okay, even though it must be a sad time. xo 

Eternal rest grant unto her, Oh Lord
May Light Perpetual shine upon her,
and may the souls of all the faithful departed
rest in peace. Amen
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#38
Thanks Teresa Agrorum and Margaret-Mary. Remembering you both in my prayers tonight.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#39
(06-18-2020, 07:39 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: As you know, I too used to feel that way about the NO; that for me going to NO was mostly misery. But recent events (this unprecedented lockdown of the churches along with recent personal experiences), have given me a new perspective. The one thing that matters most is staying in a state of grace. I need the sacraments and I'll take any port in a storm. I'll do anything I can to help my family to be in a state of grace. These are serious times. Maybe pray on these questions:

Does it honor God for you to attend NO?

Are their graces to be had there?  

Is this best for your family to go?

If the answer is yes, then go!

Funny, I had the opposite feeling.

I kept suffering the misery of the NO because of "well it's the Sacraments, despite all the abuses, bland liturgy, and boring sappy sermons."

These times I've realized that I still receive God's Grace despite being deprived of the Sacraments. Once it re-opens I don't think I can in good conscience go back to a bland NO. It just makes no sense to suffer a feminized liturgy because the need for grace.
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#40
(06-22-2020, 09:00 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(06-18-2020, 07:39 AM)JacafamalaRedux Wrote: As you know, I too used to feel that way about the NO; that for me going to NO was mostly misery. But recent events (this unprecedented lockdown of the churches along with recent personal experiences), have given me a new perspective. The one thing that matters most is staying in a state of grace. I need the sacraments and I'll take any port in a storm. I'll do anything I can to help my family to be in a state of grace. These are serious times. Maybe pray on these questions:

Does it honor God for you to attend NO?

Are their graces to be had there?  

Is this best for your family to go?

If the answer is yes, then go!

Funny, I had the opposite feeling.

I kept suffering the misery of the NO because of "well it's the Sacraments, despite all the abuses, bland liturgy, and boring sappy sermons."

These times I've realized that I still receive God's Grace despite being deprived of the Sacraments.  Once it re-opens I don't think I can in good conscience go back to a bland NO.  It just makes no sense to suffer a feminized liturgy because the need for grace.

Your choice. But I think we may have bigger problems on our hands, and soon. See how you feel after BLM and ANTIFA are done with our churches, because they're coming. Did you see the statues of Bl. Serra were pulled down?


ETA: I've been going to Confession to this priest. https://www.olmc.church/confession I'm really grateful for his ministry. If I didn't have Confession at this time, I'd be in trouble. For sure.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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