Apologetic for Troubling Verse
#1
So this meme is going around and I know that one of my kids sites this and other verses like it as their reason for falling away from the faith.

It's been years since I looked into this on Catholic Answers.

I need help with a short, sweet and to the point explanation for this.

What do you guys think?

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Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist. 
The demons of the air together with the Antichrist will perform great wonders  
The Church will be in eclipse

-Our Lady of La Salette


Like Christ, His Bride the Church will undergo its own passion, burial, and resurrection.
-unknown traditional priest

Father Ripperger said that if we are detached from all things, aren't afraid to suffer, and we accept all suffering as the will of God for our sanctity, we have nothing to fear!
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#2
Quote:“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.



These are the words of Our Lord. Jesus set the record straight. Anytime you're in the Old Testament, you've got to read it in light of the New, otherwise it's not Christian.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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#3
I saw this verse coming from the thread title!

The above poster makes a good point.

I've had enough of whitewashing scripture to suit the sentiment of the day. The same people on the reverse side of this tendency (namely protestants and those who would willfully alter the meaning of scripture through purely individualistic lenses) would argue that many of the worst sins today are 'not that big a deal' because of a Hebrew word, or through a drawing in of extraneous and unrelated sources, or because a minister said, etc. before ultimately throwing their hands up in the air and sighing, 'it's just one of those mysteries, I guess.'

Obviously a nuanced approach to the topic of fortune and misfortune in the world is required, which is why in the Church we're blessed with many Doctors such as St. Aquinas and St. Augustine who elucidated quite well on the nature of evil and desolation. That said, and understanding the many nuanced positions available, I would recommend also trying to reconcile the above verse with Isaiah 45:7. (There's your zinger! response)

Right there are several methods to understanding a literal, straightforward meaning. Use it to challenge yourself and grow in faith. But keep in mind, there is also the allegorical, symbolical and spiritual meanings. ex: The fruit of dysfunction can see only ruin, the Lord himself will dash it to the earth. We should be afraid of retribution.


QUICK NOTE:
If your kid is using this verse to lay criticism on the faith, it's probably a good sign. Right now the cultural trends are overwhelmingly secular and our youth are faced with more temptation than perhaps ever before. To cite passages such as this shows signs of engagement and interest where for most all such endeavor is absent entirely. In point of fact, I'd be willing to bet this verse made far more believers than unbelievers...my own personal experience. Give it time.
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#4
One of those verses that make me think, pagans should talk.

Pagan literature is filled with such imagery, because the typical way to kill the child of your enemy is to grasp him by the feet and swing his head against a boulder. Horrifyingly brutal but quick. Is this method archaic? Oh no. Look around you.

Who is the enemy of Christ and His Body, the Church? Now the meaning of the verse becomes clear: we are to dash heresy and error to pieces with all the resolve of pagans killing the children of their enemy.

Interesting that your correspondent assumed Christians would happily kill human children--those who hate God do this. Surely he knows that!
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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#5
(06-30-2020, 11:30 AM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote: Interesting that your correspondent assumed Christians would happily kill human children--those who hate God do this. Surely he knows that!
One only need look at the preceding verse (context is a great thing, isn't it?):
"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, blessed is he who repays you as you have done to us"

One of the most common mistakes people make is in thinking the Bible is full of guiltless heroes, and that every verse is an edict from on high. This psalm itself was written by someone who witnessed firsthand the massacres of ancient warfare and the brutality of child-killing. To think personal passions and pains wouldn't have affected the writer...get real. It's in light of this pain, exposed bare, that gives this psalm it's tragic beauty. In addition, such concepts as human rights, defense of the unborn, etc. even the notion that guilt by association is an indefensible concept, are far more recent notions in the history of humanity.

The Old Testament in general is very eye for an eye, which brings new light to the radical saving power of Christ and the New Covenant. The point you make about pagans is very astute; verses like this are a window into the pre-Christian world. Perhaps, if I may add, it's this same lack of a New Covenant which is manifesting today with the selfsame symptoms (abortion, whites everywhere must atone for the 'sins' of their ancestors...dashing little ones on the rocks, 'as our culture was destroyed, so will we deface your monuments', might is right, etc.)
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#6
The OT is very eye for an eye. This is the fate that awaits all who will not accept Christ. It is existence without Him.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching (2 Tim. 3:16). 'What' is this Rock against which the Saints will happily dash the 'little ones' of Satan?

It is Christ, of course.

Great thread.
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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#7
(06-30-2020, 02:16 PM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote: The OT is very eye for an eye. 
Not only does following that verse from the murderous, Babylonian, first dynasty pagan, ruler's Code of Hammurabi, but following such an insane rule would leave everyone, blind and toothless. 
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis
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#8
(06-30-2020, 02:58 PM)Zedta Wrote:
(06-30-2020, 02:16 PM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote: The OT is very eye for an eye. 
Not only does following that verse from the murderous, Babylonian, first dynasty pagan, ruler's Code of Hammurabi, but following such an insane rule would leave everyone, blind and toothless. 

You do know that before 'eye for an eye', the usual response was for the victim's family to kill the offender and his family. 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life' limits the retribution. It would do no such thing as 'leave everyone blind and toothless', unless everyone's committing crimes.

As for the psalm (which, by the way, the Church cut out those last two verses from the Liturgy of the Hours), it's best taken in the spiritual sense, as mentioned above, where the 'children of Babylon' are our vices and sins. 'Babylon' in Scripture is never a good place, and with good reason, as it was where the Hebrews were in captivity and exile after the destruction of the first Temple, the dwelling-place of God. In a more literal sense, it's a divine curse against the people who are oppressing God's chosen people, and, yes, killing enemy children is how war was conducted back then. Otherwise the children grow up and start another war.

Whoever started that meme isn't looking for answers, but just wants to stir things up and try to drive people away from Christianity. If he really wanted answers, he'd ask a priest, or at least a Protestant minister who's studied the Bible, not just 'Christians'. It's completely ridiculous to expect every Christian to be an expert on every part of the Bible. Nobody expects that - or shouldn't - in any other area, so why should it be true for religion?
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#9
(06-30-2020, 10:20 PM)Paul Wrote: Whoever started that meme isn't looking for answers, but just wants to stir things up and try to drive people away from Christianity. If he really wanted answers, he'd ask a priest, or at least a Protestant minister who's studied the Bible, not just 'Christians'. It's completely ridiculous to expect every Christian to be an expert on every part of the Bible. Nobody expects that - or shouldn't - in any other area, so why should it be true for religion?

Couldn't agree more with the sentiment. Sadly people expect expertise in every domain and from every person. Expertise not sanctioned by any institution, mind you, but rather the kind of individualized sophistry that's little more than an assemblage of buzzwords and pre-packaged ideas. I'm reminded of the videos on the BLM protestors screaming and interrupting the moment they hear a response that seems to go in a way they weren't expecting. The act of engaging itself becomes a new form of sophistry.

We used to stress to students the logical fallacy of appeals to authority, in an effort to reduce the impact of large monolithic institutions. Now, it's the opposite, in the wake of the destruction of every major traditional institution, appeals to authority are ubiquitous - in that the authority now merely lies with the majority. Even police and politicians will bow.
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#10
Quote:We used to stress to students the logical fallacy of appeals to authority, in an effort to reduce the impact of large monolithic institutions. Now, it's the opposite, in the wake of the destruction of every major traditional institution, appeals to authority are ubiquitous - in that the authority now merely lies with the majority. Even police and politicians will bow.
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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