Apologetic for Troubling Verse
#11
Quote:You do know that before 'eye for an eye', the usual response was for the victim's family to kill the offender and his family. 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life' limits the retribution. It would do no such thing as 'leave everyone blind and toothless', unless everyone's committing crimes.

It is in the nature of a blood feud to escalate; it would take very little, I think, for practically everyone to get involved. But your point is a necessary distinction: 'an eye for an eye' was intended to limit the damage done; when the Lord came He did away with the seeking of retribution. ("Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord.")
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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#12
(06-30-2020, 10:20 PM)Paul Wrote: As for the psalm (which, by the way, the Church cut out those last two verses from the Liturgy of the Hours), it's best taken in the spiritual sense, as mentioned above, where the 'children of Babylon' are our vices and sins. 'Babylon' in Scripture is never a good place, and with good reason, as it was where the Hebrews were in captivity and exile after the destruction of the first Temple, the dwelling-place of God. In a more literal sense, it's a divine curse against the people who are oppressing God's chosen people, and, yes, killing enemy children is how war was conducted back then. Otherwise the children grow up and start another war.

This is one of the psalms of Davidic origin, meaning it was likely written well before the fall of Babylon, yet speaks of an exile in Babylon and the psalmist forgetting Sion. This makes the Babylonian reference clearly a spiritual one and not literal, meaning it's silly to take this verse to suggest the actual murder of children as being recommended.

"Children" are a common biblical reference for anything which flows from someone. Read Isaias 14 and you see in 14:4 a reference to Babylon.

Then in 14:12 the real meaning of "Babylon" when God, through the prophet says : "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?"

And finally in 14:21 we get a very similar language about the "children" of Babylon/Lucifer : "Prepare his children for slaughter for the iniquity of their fathers."

So, no Psalm 136 is not recommending infanticide any more than Isaias 14 is, and it clearly isn't.
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#13
Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond.  I'm astounded at the knowledge pool here at FE!  Such a wonderful resource with extremely intelligent and well-schooled participants.

The meme and the response was just something random I saw somewhere online.  

I did try when my kids were in highschool to arm them with apologetics for these kinds of verses since I knew they would come across this stuff (sooooooo different from anything my generation experienced in our lives).

Yes, sometimes people are angry about things and find excuses to bail...

There is also Numbers 31:18, and disgust about Lot's daughters and the continuation of the race...
Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist. 
The demons of the air together with the Antichrist will perform great wonders  
The Church will be in eclipse

-Our Lady of La Salette


Like Christ, His Bride the Church will undergo its own passion, burial, and resurrection.
-unknown traditional priest

Father Ripperger said that if we are detached from all things, aren't afraid to suffer, and we accept all suffering as the will of God for our sanctity, we have nothing to fear!
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#14
(07-01-2020, 12:59 AM)Sacred Heart lover Wrote: Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond.  I'm astounded at the knowledge pool here at FE!  Such a wonderful resource with extremely intelligent and well-schooled participants.

The meme and the response was just something random I saw somewhere online.  

I did try when my kids were in highschool to arm them with apologetics for these kinds of verses since I knew they would come across this stuff (sooooooo different from anything my generation experienced in our lives).

Yes, sometimes people are angry about things and find excuses to bail...

There is also Numbers 31:18, and disgust about Lot's daughters and the continuation of the race...


Also, I have to sift through this again since I've heard so many times things like "Kill the Infidel" really means to kill our evil impulses inside...etc., and I know my kids have too.
Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist. 
The demons of the air together with the Antichrist will perform great wonders  
The Church will be in eclipse

-Our Lady of La Salette


Like Christ, His Bride the Church will undergo its own passion, burial, and resurrection.
-unknown traditional priest

Father Ripperger said that if we are detached from all things, aren't afraid to suffer, and we accept all suffering as the will of God for our sanctity, we have nothing to fear!
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#15
Pretty much a message of those who are godless and indulge in endless perversion will ripe the consequences of their acts and abandonement of God. One can see a spiritual meaning, of course, but the destruction of the nations that persevere in their monstrosities is a common theme. This psalm just expresses this in a striking manner, which is probably what it wants to evoke.

Regarding Lot, this is already commented on by Church Fathers like origins: in no way what Lot's daughters did is presented as good or desirable, though their actions at least have a non-perverse basis.

Regarding numbers, as expected virgin women with no husband will be less attached to the paganism and practices that are the cause of their punishment. After all, it is many times the man that moves the family towards a certain religious position. In some cases of particular perversion, complete destruction of the nation is commanded, including all the loot.
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#16
Could it also be--and I'm no authority by any means--but! 

We know the whole bible is both literal and poetic. Layer upon layer is allegory. Isn't it? 

Our real enemy is satan and his "children" who are the fallen angels.  Perhaps we'd want to happily dash their naughty little demonic heads against rocks (by the power of God), because goodness knows they deserve it for all the trouble they've given to us.
"Not only are we all in the same boat, but we are all seasick.” --G.K. Chesterton
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#17
Quote:In some cases of particular perversion, complete destruction of the nation is commanded, including all the loot.

Sadly, that sounds like us.
Qui me amat, amet et Deum meum.
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#18
(07-06-2020, 09:31 PM)Teresa Agrorum Wrote:
Quote:In some cases of particular perversion, complete destruction of the nation is commanded, including all the loot.

Sadly, that sounds like us.

Personally, I can't wait for the fire to start raining
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