Who are the Heralds of the Gospel and what are the TFP movement?
#1
Before I ask my questions. I want it known that I am traditional Catholic and not a radical traditional Catholic. I am critical of certain disciplinary and pastoral teachings in the church, but the Pope is Pope and like it or not Vatican II is both valid and licit. (Again I don't like all of the discipline changes).

Now about the topics:

I have just found out/ discovered this group called the Heralds of the Gospel and the TFP movement (Tradition, Family, and Property).

I found some articles that say they are radical traditionalists and others that say they are just just regular traditional catholics. I even found one article that says that they are not traditional catholics, but reformists in everything except ceremony.

So I am getting a lot of mixed messages. 

Here is what little I know, but I do not know to what degree this information is accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heralds_of...GU24cN_lxE

This wiki article says that there Heralds of the Gospel are an offshoot of the TFP movement (again still not 100% sure what that entails, except that they are generally traditional at the very least). It also says that there are 2 societies of apostolic life associated with them, 1 for women and 1 for men. The Article indicates that both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict like this group, but that Pope Francis did not, and tried to reform the group in 2017.

Tradition,_Family_and_Property 

This article seems to indicate that the TFP hold semi-fascist ideas. But I have seen other wiki articles claim that many pro-life groups are hate groups when they are not sighting the Southern Poverty law center, which from what I know is a hate group itself.

https://onepeterfive.com/heralds-gospel/...Vgc2CZoGSs

This is the article I mentioned that said that the TFP are not traditional catholics, but reformists in everything except ceremony. However I am also hesitate about trusting 1 percent 5, because they article seems interesting, but I find it sad that the author refers to his Holiness as Pope Bergoglio instead of Pope Francis. To me this is usually a good marker of someone who is irreverent to the Pope and at least in this guard a little more radical. 

https://www.facebook.com/priscilla.sanch...536747462/

Here is a video that someone sent to me about the Heralds of the Gospel acting as a military guard for a statue/Blessed Sacrament or an ecclesiastical or royal personage. Apparently these habits that they are wearing are based off of medieval crusaders. But I am left wondering besides the Swiss guards who else uses such military ceremony? Are there any good articles on these military ceremonies that anyone is aware of?

Can someone explain to me the (TFP movement and who the Heralds of the Gospel are)? Which of these articles are correct? Where do these groups fall on the traditional catholic spectrum? What was it that the Heralds of the Gospel doing wrong in 2017? Are there good and bad arms of the TFP movement? 

Thanks in advance. (: 
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#2
It's bound to stir the pot here to make distinctions like "regular traditional Catholic" versus "radical traditional Catholic."

By what objective metric does one determine this, and does that not already suggest that one (you) is good, but the other (the "radiical") is not good?

If it is not an objective metric which can be easily determined through external actions and agreed by most with common sense as a determining factor—e.g. heresy, theological error, schism, rejection of the apparent Pope, election of an anti-Pope, etc.—then it is merely a subjective label, and unlikely to help any proper discussion or questions.

If subjective it would be like saying, "I am a real American not one of those fake Americans!" and then asking if "Group X" were a real Americans or fake Americans? Even if the question had value, it probably would not elicit a reasonable reply from many.

I realize you're new here, so perhaps are not approaching a legitimate question in the best way—a question on the TFP is a legitimate and good one—but I did just want to preface a more detailed answer to your actual questions to help further good interactions on the forum.
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#3
Much has been said here on this forum that a quick search could turn up, so not to drag out those old things, let me summarize.

TFP (standing for Tradition, Family and Property) was created in 1960 in Brazil by Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira as an anti-liberal socially-traditional movement inspired by Catholic ideas, much like Le Sillon in late 19th- and early 20th-century France.

Le Sillon ran astray towards anti-clericalism and was condemned by Pope St Pius X, and then dissolved. TFP also became a virulently anti-clerical movement, and it also was condemned by the local bishop Msgr Antonio de Castro Mayer (who later allied with Msgr Lefebvre).

Much could also be said about the bizarre cult-like behavior of Corrêa de Oliveira. Former members, for instance, report that he claimed to prophesy, and directed followers to reverence him and his mother as living Saints next in dignity to Our Lady and Our Lord. Present member deny this, or try to relegate it to a few oddballs in the Brazilian branch.

A former member in a 1983 edition of the SSPX's Angelus Magazine reported that while the group would pray the Rosary together, they never attended Mass together, and while they received Communion daily, it was only given by a layman who distributed it from a huge cache of hosts consecrated by a priest who visited 3-4 times per year. The reason for this is that they suggested that the clergy were all corrupt and Modernist and not to be trusted. The author of that article also said that most TFP people were Sedevacantists. Whether that is the case now or if it were confined to a particular group, I don't know.

It was this spirit that led Msgr de Castro Mayer to condemn them, because, as far as their political action goes, while its prudence in some regards could be questioned, their zeal for anti-liberal actions is certainly not lacking and to a degree, praiseworthy. The problem is that it comes from a bad spirit, since it is all about action and fails to account for the necessary foundation of a good spiritual life which is also a good Sacramental life, which has the Mass at its center.

As a group, TFP is not traditonalist in religious form at all. They do not promote a liturgy at all, since they have an anti-clerical spirit behind them. Some prefer the more traditional liturgy when they do go, because of their traditional political ethics. Some have no issue with the Novus Ordo Mass. So, as regards "traditionalism" they are not really "traditionalists" in anything except their political action, and this comes less from a desire to positively promote certain Catholic principles, but rather an anti-liberal agenda.

As regards the Heralds of the Gospel, they were the product of a group that separated from the TFP, and was a clerical response to this anti-clerical spirit, but clearly took the same excesses from the original movement : https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/c...ices-30800

As regards the Papa Bergoglio versus Pope Francis terminology, this is not necessarily an indicator of rejection of a Pope. The Italians, for instance, often referred to the Pope by surname rather than by his chosen name, and it was not meant as a disrespect.
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#4
(10-05-2020, 02:31 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: "It's bound to stir the pot here to make distinctions like "regular traditional Catholic" versus "radical traditional Catholic.""

Not trying to stir the pot, however before I joined this form it was my understanding that Ms. Tracy is very much against what she calls toxic trads. A.K.A. radical trads. According to her link bellow she has a whole criteria of what she deems toxic trads.

abouttheforum.html

I always understood radical traditional Catholics (in a perhaps over simplified definition), as ones who did not rejected the validity or licitly of Vatican II or the Novus Ordo, are extremely disrespectful to his Holiness Pope Francis. Where as a Radical Reformist would be a Catholic who embraces modernism and are cafeteria Catholics when it comes to Catholic Dogma especially certain parts of moral dogma. Where as radical trads lean towards schism, radical reformists lean towards heresy. To extreme on either side of the spectrum. 

As for me Pope Francis he is not my favorite Pope. I disagree with him on a lot of (but not all) of his discipline and pastoral teaching polices. However he is the Pope and even if I were not able to respect the man, I will respect his office. I am also not a huge fan of the Novus Ordo as I find it is typically done more irreverently than not. But I do not shun people who go to them or think they are invalid or illicit, and I think they can be done reverently and when it is does reverently I even enjoy it. 

However, my point in stating all of this and my original disclaimer is not to stir the pot, but while I am asking these questions on the TFP and Heralds of the Gospel (whom again I do not 100% understand, if they are good or bad), [I do not want to be marked as a radical traditionalist just by asking about these guys]. 

"I realize you're new here, so perhaps are not approaching a legitimate question in the best way—a question on the TFP is a legitimate and good one—but I did just want to preface a more detailed answer to your actual questions to help further good interactions on the forum."

It may be you are right. I only know 1 person in this group and even then, not as well as I would like, so I am trying to be cautious by making a disclaimer. Perhaps over cautious? (: I don't know. 
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#5
(10-05-2020, 03:01 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: "As a group, TFP is not traditonalist in religious form at all. They do not promote a liturgy at all, since they have an anti-clerical spirit behind them. Some prefer the more traditional liturgy when they do go, because of their traditional political ethics. Some have no issue with the Novus Ordo Mass. So, as regards "traditionalism" they are not really "traditionalists" in anything except their political action, and this comes less from a desire to positively promote certain Catholic principles, but rather an anti-liberal agenda.


Interesting so by anti-clerical spirit, do you mean anticlerical in that they are against other Catholic clerics? Le Sillon was from what little I know of them a socialist organization. Does TFP embrace socialism or liberation theology?

So is the Vatican going to shut down the TFP and or the Heralds of the Gospel you think? (: 
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#6
(10-05-2020, 12:01 AM)Confessionalist Catholic. Wrote: Before I ask my questions. I want it known that I am traditional Catholic and not a radical traditional Catholic. I am critical of certain disciplinary and pastoral teachings in the church, but the Pope is Pope and like it or not Vatican II is both valid and licit. (Again I don't like all of the discipline changes).

Now about the topics:

I have just found out/ discovered this group called the Heralds of the Gospel and the TFP movement (Tradition, Family, and Property).

I found some articles that say they are radical traditionalists and others that say they are just just regular traditional catholics. I even found one article that says that they are not traditional catholics, but reformists in everything except ceremony.

So I am getting a lot of mixed messages. 

Here is what little I know, but I do not know to what degree this information is accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heralds_of...GU24cN_lxE

This wiki article says that there Heralds of the Gospel are an offshoot of the TFP movement (again still not 100% sure what that entails, except that they are generally traditional at the very least). It also says that there are 2 societies of apostolic life associated with them, 1 for women and 1 for men. The Article indicates that both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict like this group, but that Pope Francis did not, and tried to reform the group in 2017.

Tradition,_Family_and_Property 

This article seems to indicate that the TFP hold semi-fascist ideas. But I have seen other wiki articles claim that many pro-life groups are hate groups when they are not sighting the Southern Poverty law center, which from what I know is a hate group itself.

https://onepeterfive.com/heralds-gospel/...Vgc2CZoGSs

This is the article I mentioned that said that the TFP are not traditional catholics, but reformists in everything except ceremony. However I am also hesitate about trusting 1 percent 5, because they article seems interesting, but I find it sad that the author refers to his Holiness as Pope Bergoglio instead of Pope Francis. To me this is usually a good marker of someone who is irreverent to the Pope and at least in this guard a little more radical. 

https://www.facebook.com/priscilla.sanch...536747462/

Here is a video that someone sent to me about the Heralds of the Gospel acting as a military guard for a statue/Blessed Sacrament or an ecclesiastical or royal personage. Apparently these habits that they are wearing are based off of medieval crusaders. But I am left wondering besides the Swiss guards who else uses such military ceremony? Are there any good articles on these military ceremonies that anyone is aware of?

Can someone explain to me the (TFP movement and who the Heralds of the Gospel are)? Which of these articles are correct? Where do these groups fall on the traditional catholic spectrum? What was it that the Heralds of the Gospel doing wrong in 2017? Are there good and bad arms of the TFP movement? 

Thanks in advance. (: 


I do my best to understand what you wrote, my english is very basic.
I will read many times to be sure I understand everything you wrote.

Peace be with you.
Louise + + +
Jesus loves everybody.
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#7
(10-05-2020, 03:34 AM)Confessionalist Catholic. Wrote: It may be you are right. I only know 1 person in this group and even then, not as well as I would like, so I am [/size]trying[size=small] to be cautious by making a disclaimer. Perhaps over cautious? (: I don't know. 

Probably unnecessary to make any disclaimer. You're a Catholic, we're mostly Catholics here, and desirous to be good Catholics, even if we may differ on how to best approach that. That's why we discuss things here.

"Toxic Trads" from my experience here are those who try to dominate conversations, rail against reasonable Catholics trying to figure things out who may not agree 100% with them, refuse to couch their opinion in normally polite language ("It seems to me what you are saying is very close to X" or "I hope you're not saying X, because that is the X heresy" or "I'm not sure what you mean by X. Could you explain how that matches the Catholic teaching on Y?"). Toxic trads are those who make traditionally-minded Catholics look like nutters.

They are best left to orbit their own planet in their own universe (because many of them are certainly not willing to orbit a sun).

Your own opinions will come out gently in discussions and you can figure out where the rest of us each stand, and then discuss why we think the way we do, and then judge whether to agree or disagree. That's why FE has worked for so long, and why toxic trads are not welcome, even though highly opinionated people are not a problem here, provided we can all act civilly.


(10-05-2020, 03:41 AM)Confessionalist Catholic. Wrote: Interesting so by anti-clerical spirit, do you mean anticlerical in that they are against other Catholic clerics? Le Sillon was from what little I know of them a socialist organization. Does TFP embrace socialism or liberation theology?

Le Sillon was originally a very anti-liberal group (it was formed in response to and in the spirit of Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum) which sought to help cure the socialist influence in the labor movements through instilling Catholic ideas (which often seem in social policy to favor policies nominally similar to some more socialist ones).

Unfortunately, they adopted too secular an attitude, and their Catholic principles slipped away. By the first decade of the 20th century, they had given up allowing the clergy to supervise and guide their work, and as a result it became somewhat anti-clerical (rejecting the need for clerical oversight) and mostly secular.

TFP followed a similar path, which was anti-liberal, but took a more antagonistic approach and so, if anything they fell off towards the political right. Seeing that the clergy of the 1960s tended to be very liberally minded, and that after Vatican II, the clergy as a group more of less went full-on liberal secularist with a veneer of Christianity, they began rejecting the need for the clergy's work. As Catholics they knew they needed a priest to confect the Eucharist for them, but many saw this as a "necessary evil" which is why the report from the former member in 1983 that few attended Mass, and they only invited a priest in a few times for the purpose of consecrating many hosts that they would distribute to themselves without priest around.

That is not to say all are like this, but the general spirit does tend to be against the need for the clergy to lead, and instead sees the laity as the salvation of the Church (which is, ironically, a very novel and liberal concept and fully opposed to history and doctrine). That kind of thing often happens when the balance is off. Fighting against one camp opposed to the Faith, if not balanced, one can easily adopt some of their methods and principles in trying to fight them.

Getting back to toxic trads (TFP is not traditionalist Catholic in any sense), one often sees this. In order to "fight for the Faith" toxic trads are happy to violate the moral law through calumny, detraction, and plenty of other liberal tactics.

(10-05-2020, 03:34 AM)Confessionalist Catholic. Wrote: So is the Vatican going to shut down the TFP and or the Heralds of the Gospel you think? (: 

No idea.

Since the TFP is sui juris and not a recognized association of the faithful, I doubt the TFP would even listen if the church tried. The bishop where they were founded initially supported them, but then saw them for what they were, and condemned them. They still kept going.

The Heralds of the Gospels was canonically recognized. Given they are very anti-liberal in their politics, are known to those in South American fairly well, and Pope Francis is certainly no fan of their politics, I would not be surprised, but then, if the reports are true, it does seem that they may have some real issues, and even if shut down unjustly for their politics, they may have deserved to be shut down for reasons more directly connected to the Faith.
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#8
MM summarized perfectly the entire situation envolving the TFP and the Heralds, not to mention that One Peter Five's article is quite good as well, though I would like to add something here and there.
Mgr. Dias spent his youth in the army, there's the reason behind all the militaristic references the Heralds have, such as marching boots, formations, tabards... though I hardly believe that the Brazilian army has any instruction on how to wash your hands, something the Heralds have. He also brought from his youth his love for all things medieval and the devotion towards Plínio and his mother, to the disturbing point where a Heralds' workshop was decorated with three or four images of Plínio's mother, two images of the Virgin, one of Plínio himself and two of Our Lord, one being repaired.
The accusations MM speak are rather severe, and even SSPX News mentions only a handful of them. What I've read and heard about, after all local media is more than happy to stir things up, goes from cases of heresy and cult mentality to racism and abuse. 

The only thing I'm against in 1P5's text is when they say that:
Maybe all this makes more sense culturally to right-wing Brazilians.

Honestly, it makes no sense to us.
There is a great prestige and admiration for the army and the military forces, but this... is something else.
Ite ad Ioseph
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