Question about heaven, New Jerusalem
#11
(10-13-2020, 04:02 PM)Melkite Wrote: I also don't agree with the atheists that heaven is "boring."  I'm just saying, since we can't imagine what heaven is like, I can understand why someone who thinks heaven is nothing other than staring at God finds the prospect of spending eternity there to be less than appealing.

That's what I initially misunderstood when I read about the Beatific Vision. Then you realize that the direct knowledge of God completes you in such a way that you attempt to do in this life through created things, and it all makes sense as to how that would be just the opposite of boring. It's like having the best, most fulfilling moment in this life, except that it never ends and actually increases infinitely from that point. Like the rush of joy you get from engaging in some favorite pastime or food or person magnified endlessly. Also, the knowledge that when you get back your glorified body you will possess powers far beyond any imagined superhero helps as well.

Personally, thinking of it this way makes it a little easier to mentally detach myself from created things. I remember when I first realized this how hollow the things I enjoyed here and now really were, and reflecting on it makes it easier to bear the bad things when they come and also makes it easier to comprehend why it is so dire that we help others get there too.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#12
(10-13-2020, 09:19 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(10-13-2020, 04:02 PM)Melkite Wrote: You do raise a new question about it for me.  I had never really thought of the beatific vision as an intellectual vision.  I just kind of thought it would be essentially a bodiless, yet still more or less physical vision.  If there is no physical, or physical-like, component to it prior to the resurrection, and it is just an intellectual awareness, is the beatific vision then just a sort of dreaming soul-sleep?

I'd hesitate to use the term, because it probably does not capture the true intellectual activity which is involved, but I guess that's a somewhat crude way of looking at it.

"Dream" does not really capture it, because dreaming is not an intellectual activity. Dogs dream. This is an act of the imagination which assembles and presents images in seeming random fashion, and so it does not necessarily involved the intellect.

The Beatific Vision is something which is an active contemplation of God, so also it's not merely a passive action like sleep.

Perhaps a better analogy is a dream in which one is engaged, active and aware of everything, actively choosing and delving deeper into the dream and mystery of God constantly.

This is a difficult notion to conceive of. Dreaming soul-sleep was what I was able to come up with on the spot. Maybe intellectual awareness in physical oblivion is a better way to describe it?

I know the brain isn't the ultimate source of our awareness, but our intellect as we are able to experience it requires the brain. So, if I'm understanding philosophical accidents correctly, our understanding of intellect and awareness would be accidents of the brain, right? It's next to impossible to imagine how the intellect could operate at all without some physical foundation to lay out and organize all the information we'll be aware of. Is it like Sheol, and the fog of the mind described there is just the best way they could explain how we could be aware at the same time not having a body to do anything with that awareness?
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#13
(10-13-2020, 02:59 PM)51olds Wrote: I've also thought about this a bit, about what kind of things we will "do" in heaven if we get there. Staring at God forever does enter the mind, but also I know that scripture tells us that we cannot even begin to imagine what awaits us there. So I trust God as Our Father, and he know how to make us happy
So, I think that perhaps protestants and others maybe don't "trust" that God will make them happy for eternity? Not sure, but it is sad. I have relatives that are Jehova Witness and they've said things like "why do you want to go to heaven, it will be boring there". Their opinion is that we will 'inherit' the earth and live here forever.
I dont think they have a concept of the Beatific Vision.
Our vision of God will be mental. In my opinion, there will be New Heaven and New Earth. It will be like on earth now for New Earth. We will have all or most of the good that we have here, such as arts, music, architecture, maybe even internet and so on.
But we in doing those things will always have the Beatific Vision as well.
Basically a perfect earth with much more.(And the Beatific Vision)
Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us!
Свѧты́й Бо́же, Свѧты́й Крѣ́пкый, Свѧты́й Безсме́ртный, поми́луй на́съ.
Svjatyj Bože, Svjatyj Kriepkyj, Svjatyj Bezsmertnyj, pomiłuj nas.
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