Sedes, are non-Sedes saved? (and vice versa)
#11
" They are very good at mixing a little bit of truth with a lot of outrageous lies"
What outrageous lies?

(11-19-2020, 03:05 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 02:42 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Those who are saved are they who die in the state of grace.

Being a sedevacantist does not mean you are automatically saved, just as being a Catholic does not mean you are automatically saved.
MHFM, while they have put out some good content, are Feeneyites, meaning they take extra ecclesia non salus to an extreme and basically say that everyone who dies without water baptism and is not a card-carrying Roman Catholic will end up in Hell. They deny baptism of desire and baptism by blood.

I am a sedevacantist (technically sedeprivationist), and I don't believe I will be saved simply because of a theological position on the current state of the Church. I believe I will be saved, God-willing, if I die without mortal sin on my soul.

I suggest stepping away from MHFM and reading some pre-conciliar books like the Catechism of Trent.
Can one be in a state of grace if they follow an anti-pope, or, if they don't follow the true Pope?

I find that theory very interesting.

I apologize if I am taking your time but could you suggest some other books? I think by "pre-conciliar", you mean before Vatican 2, yet I am not completely sure.

Thank you for your help.

I think so. There are people who are not familiar with the dogma concerning the loss of papal office. If they are in a state of grace, then yes, they could. It's becoming less and less likely, though. Almost nobody knew at the time that J23 was an antipope. But if it isn't clear by 2020, then those people are obstinate. Prudent people would have looked for answers by now. Yes, pre-Counciliar is trad talk for before the Second Vatican Council. 99.9% of trads are 100% OK with the First Vatican Council and you should be too.
”What happened after the [Second Vatican] Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on -the-spot product.” -- Cardinal Ratzinger, in the preface to Klaus Gambler's The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background
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#12
(11-19-2020, 03:36 PM)Melkite Wrote: Come East!  These issues aren't really even on our radar.  Not because they're not important, but really, they're not THAT important.  Do the will of God, receive the sacraments, and be in communion with your bishop.  Leave the rest to the hierarchy.
You are referring to the Byzantine rite, correct?
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#13
(11-19-2020, 03:37 PM)I am the GOAT Wrote: " They are very good at mixing a little bit of truth with a lot of outrageous lies"
What outrageous lies?

(11-19-2020, 03:05 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 02:42 PM)Augustinian Wrote: Those who are saved are they who die in the state of grace.

Being a sedevacantist does not mean you are automatically saved, just as being a Catholic does not mean you are automatically saved.
MHFM, while they have put out some good content, are Feeneyites, meaning they take extra ecclesia non salus to an extreme and basically say that everyone who dies without water baptism and is not a card-carrying Roman Catholic will end up in Hell. They deny baptism of desire and baptism by blood.

I am a sedevacantist (technically sedeprivationist), and I don't believe I will be saved simply because of a theological position on the current state of the Church. I believe I will be saved, God-willing, if I die without mortal sin on my soul.

I suggest stepping away from MHFM and reading some pre-conciliar books like the Catechism of Trent.
Can one be in a state of grace if they follow an anti-pope, or, if they don't follow the true Pope?

I find that theory very interesting.

I apologize if I am taking your time but could you suggest some other books? I think by "pre-conciliar", you mean before Vatican 2, yet I am not completely sure.

Thank you for your help.

I think so. There are people who are not familiar with the dogma concerning the loss of papal office. If they are in a state of grace, then yes, they could. It's becoming less and less likely, though. Almost nobody knew at the time that J23 was an antipope. But if it isn't clear by 2020, then those people are obstinate. Prudent people would have looked for answers by now. Yes, pre-Counciliar is trad talk for before the Second Vatican Council. 99.9% of trads are 100% OK with the First Vatican Council and you should be too.
Where would you suggest looking for answers aside from MHFM?

Yes, I am totally fine with Vatican 1 and I am actually quite interested in it. I didn't think there would ever be anyone that would reject it.

Thank you for your help.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#14
(11-19-2020, 05:32 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 03:36 PM)Melkite Wrote: Come East!  These issues aren't really even on our radar.  Not because they're not important, but really, they're not THAT important.  Do the will of God, receive the sacraments, and be in communion with your bishop.  Leave the rest to the hierarchy.
You are referring to the Byzantine rite, correct?

Yes.
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#15
(11-19-2020, 05:35 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: Where would you suggest looking for answers aside from MHFM?

Yes, I am totally fine with Vatican 1 and I am actually quite interested in it. I didn't think there would ever be anyone that would reject it.

Thank you for your help.

First stop would be the "For Catholics" section on this site.

If you're interested in the sedevacantist angle of things, you can check out Novus Ordo Watch, they have a ton of articles and links to other sources. SGGResources, traditionalmass.org and the late Fr. Cekada's blog "Quidlibet" have some good articles and resources on the sede position. There's also the Cassiciacum Thesis, which explains what is known as "sedeprivationism," if you're knowledgeable about Catholic theology.

For the R&R (Recognize and Resist) position, check out SSPX.org and the Fatima Center, they have some good resources available as well.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#16
I think it's semi-reasonable that most people will not be held responsible for the confusion caused by the hierarchy as long as you are trying your darndest to be Catholic and virtuous and grow in the grace of God.
Ave Christus Rex!
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#17
(11-19-2020, 05:47 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 05:32 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 03:36 PM)Melkite Wrote: Come East!  These issues aren't really even on our radar.  Not because they're not important, but really, they're not THAT important.  Do the will of God, receive the sacraments, and be in communion with your bishop.  Leave the rest to the hierarchy.
You are referring to the Byzantine rite, correct?

Yes.
I see. I have considered it, to be honest, but in the end I believe that I want to be Latin. I do not want to serve or have served a Greek mass or a mass in any other language (not that there is anything wrong with that of course). I'd rather server or have served the Latin Mass, because of it's beauty, it's tradition and history, and it's glory. Your suggestion is still a possibility I will consider in the future, but in the case I am in now, I want to stay Latin. Thank you, however and nonetheless, for your help and suggestion. Deo Gratias, and God Bless you.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#18
(11-19-2020, 08:21 PM)Some Guy Wrote: I think it's semi-reasonable that most people will not be held responsible for the confusion caused by the hierarchy as long as you are trying your darndest to be Catholic and virtuous and grow in the grace of God.
I truly do hope so. God Bless and thank you for your answer.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#19
(11-19-2020, 05:58 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 05:35 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: Where would you suggest looking for answers aside from MHFM?

Yes, I am totally fine with Vatican 1 and I am actually quite interested in it. I didn't think there would ever be anyone that would reject it.

Thank you for your help.

First stop would be the "For Catholics" section on this site.

If you're interested in the sedevacantist angle of things, you can check out Novus Ordo Watch, they have a ton of articles and links to other sources. SGGResources, traditionalmass.org and the late Fr. Cekada's blog "Quidlibet" have some good articles and resources on the sede position. There's also the Cassiciacum Thesis, which explains what is known as "sedeprivationism," if you're knowledgeable about Catholic theology.

For the R&R (Recognize and Resist) position, check out SSPX.org and the Fatima Center, they have some good resources available as well.
Thank you so much for all of these sources, I am so very thankful and grateful for your help. 
Deo Gratias and God Bless.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#20
(11-19-2020, 09:50 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 05:47 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 05:32 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(11-19-2020, 03:36 PM)Melkite Wrote: Come East!  These issues aren't really even on our radar.  Not because they're not important, but really, they're not THAT important.  Do the will of God, receive the sacraments, and be in communion with your bishop.  Leave the rest to the hierarchy.
You are referring to the Byzantine rite, correct?

Yes.
I see. I have considered it, to be honest, but in the end I believe that I want to be Latin. I do not want to serve or have served a Greek mass or a mass in any other language (not that there is anything wrong with that of course). I'd rather server or have served the Latin Mass, because of it's beauty, it's tradition and history, and it's glory. Your suggestion is still a possibility I will consider in the future, but in the case I am in now, I want to stay Latin. Thank you, however and nonetheless, for your help and suggestion. Deo Gratias, and God Bless you.

It's not good for most people to switch ritual churches.  I commend you for wanting to grow where you were planted.  However, the sedevacantist thesis is, ultimately, a schismatic one - materially, if not formally.  I would recommend you at least find somewhere in the Latin church where you are as free from exposure to it as we are in the East.
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