Sedes, are non-Sedes saved? (and vice versa)
#41
(11-21-2020, 07:14 AM)For Petes Sake Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 01:00 AM)austenbosten Wrote: So then is safe to say that "Recognize & Resist" is really just a stepping stone to Sedevacantism?

Sedes sifting is no different than R&Rs sifting on Francis's teaching.
The difference is that Fr Cekada criticized resisting a pope even though he did it himself.

Did Fr Cekada flatly reject it, or is he criticizing it using hindsight. There's a very big difference.
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#42
(11-21-2020, 02:35 AM)MacPasquale Wrote: I feel bad for all the pious grandmothers who received invalid sacraments in the early 1980s because they didn't have the internet to learn about sedevacantism  and assumed the St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church down the street was actually Catholic.  Maybe if they were of good will God would have provided them with a link to MHFMs explanation of why the Pauline rites are invalid.

The line of true grandmas narrowed in 1968. Changes in the Rituale Grandmomorum means that the number of true Grandmas is limited in these days.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#43
(11-21-2020, 11:16 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 07:14 AM)For Petes Sake Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 01:00 AM)austenbosten Wrote: So then is safe to say that "Recognize & Resist" is really just a stepping stone to Sedevacantism?

Sedes sifting is no different than R&Rs sifting on Francis's teaching.
The difference is that Fr Cekada criticized resisting a pope even though he did it himself.

Did Fr Cekada flatly reject it, or is he criticizing it using hindsight.  There's a very big difference.
He claimed it became harmful only later and not at the time.
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#44
(11-21-2020, 02:35 AM)MacPasquale Wrote: I feel bad for all the pious grandmothers who received invalid sacraments in the early 1980s because they didn't have the internet to learn about sedevacantism  and assumed the St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church down the street was actually Catholic.  Maybe if they were of good will God would have provided them with a link to MHFMs explanation of why the Pauline rites are invalid.

Sarcasm aside, this is no different than the millions who died outside of the Church at any other era in time who never knew Catholicism, or lived before the Incarnation.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#45
(11-21-2020, 12:55 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 02:35 AM)MacPasquale Wrote: I feel bad for all the pious grandmothers who received invalid sacraments in the early 1980s because they didn't have the internet to learn about sedevacantism  and assumed the St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church down the street was actually Catholic.  Maybe if they were of good will God would have provided them with a link to MHFMs explanation of why the Pauline rites are invalid.

Sarcasm aside, this is no different than the millions who died outside of the Church at any other era in time who never knew Catholicism, or lived before the Incarnation.

I actually disagree with you here and it's why I cannot reconcile the SV view that NO Rites/Sacraments are invalid. If the visible Church can defect and the sheep suffer the same fate as infidels because their only sin was to live the virtue of obedience by following the Shepherds whom God willed to rule over them...then there is no promise, which is absurd.
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#46
(11-21-2020, 12:27 PM)For Petes Sake Wrote:
Quote:Did Fr Cekada flatly reject it, or is he criticizing it using hindsight.  There's a very big difference.
He claimed it became harmful only later and not at the time.

Claiming something to be harmful using hindsight is not the same as what R&Rs do. Many Catholics can look back and criticize a previous decision using hindsight (exempli gratia Pope Leo XIII decision not to support Catholic political parties), which is not the same as criticizing a papal pronouncement at the time, even going so far as to suggest doubt of valid magisterial documents.
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#47
(11-21-2020, 01:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 12:55 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 02:35 AM)MacPasquale Wrote: I feel bad for all the pious grandmothers who received invalid sacraments in the early 1980s because they didn't have the internet to learn about sedevacantism  and assumed the St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church down the street was actually Catholic.  Maybe if they were of good will God would have provided them with a link to MHFMs explanation of why the Pauline rites are invalid.

Sarcasm aside, this is no different than the millions who died outside of the Church at any other era in time who never knew Catholicism, or lived before the Incarnation.

I actually disagree with you here and it's why I cannot reconcile the SV view that NO Rites/Sacraments are invalid.  If the visible Church can defect and the sheep suffer the same fate as infidels because their only sin was to live the virtue of obedience by following the Shepherds whom God willed to rule over them...then there is no promise, which is absurd.

I never said I think the NO rites and sacraments are invalid. I think they're doubtful, and potentially harmful to the soul because of this, but I don't think they're "invalid".

My point in that response was that if indeed they are invalid, as he sarcastically asserted in his mockery of SV, then these individuals would have a fate like that of infidels. Not that I think this is true. I was baptized and confirmed NO, I have experienced the graces from it but also identified something of harm and evil there as well, and so I have rejected it.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#48
Basil, you are new here and it looks like you are digging up old threads.  There is a rule that discussion of sedevacantism should only be carried out in the Benevacantism thread.
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#49
(03-01-2021, 07:40 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Basil, you are new here and it looks like you are digging up old threads.  There is a rule that discussion of sedevacantism should only be carried out in the Benevacantism thread.
Okay. Thanks for the info.
Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us!
Свѧты́й Бо́же, Свѧты́й Крѣ́пкый, Свѧты́й Безсме́ртный, поми́луй на́съ.
Svjatyj Bože, Svjatyj Kriepkyj, Svjatyj Bezsmertnyj, pomiłuj nas.
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#50
(03-01-2021, 07:40 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Basil, you are new here and it looks like you are digging up old threads.  There is a rule that discussion of sedevacantism should only be carried out in the Benevacantism thread.
Ah. I understand threads now. They are like groups. Thanks.
Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us!
Свѧты́й Бо́же, Свѧты́й Крѣ́пкый, Свѧты́й Безсме́ртный, поми́луй на́съ.
Svjatyj Bože, Svjatyj Kriepkyj, Svjatyj Bezsmertnyj, pomiłuj nas.
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