Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass?
(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: So you're entire position against the SSPX is built on hearsay. Not a very good foundation.

Fair enough.  I'm not out to build any kind of a structured argument against the SSPX or for anything else, but the bottom line is the SSPX is canonically irregular, and they are the ones who have to bend, if you will, to fix that.  They're not bending, and that's their choice.

(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Is this people who have direct contact with the superiors, or just people who "know" things? Usually the latter are worth about as much as you pay for their advice.

I don't mind mentioning as a matter of full disclosure that most of what I know about the SSPX comes from SSPX faithful I know and a particular FSSP priest who knows Fr. Josef Bisig sufficiently well.  I have also hear Father Bisig speak at length on the founding of the FSSP and his experience with the SSPX.  A biased source, sure, but no source is going to be unbiased in any case.

I'm not trying to brush aside the points you've raised, but I will readily admit I'm not a theological student or have studied sufficiently the issues with the Vatican II to give a qualified comment.  I guess my bottom line is that I accept the continuity, cumbersome at it may be, so that I do not find myself among the irregular or the schismatic.  There have been many scandals throughout Church history but never has it given a licence for anybody to strike off and say they can operate without giving much care to what the Curia says.

(11-29-2020, 12:29 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: They don't accept it as a valid Mass? or they think it is valid, but reject it?

They don't accept it as a valid Mass.  One SSPX faithful I know asserts up and down that the NO is invalid and illicit.  I can't say how many SSPX faithful would agree, but he's definitely not the only one who would think this.

(11-29-2020, 12:34 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: If there is a point at which a Mass could become a sacrilege, though, and it is not well-defined, or authoritatively defined, then it seems that a priest who is well-studied in moral theology, unless there is some contrary teaching, could make the determination that the changes which produced the Novus Ordo Mass make it into a sacrilege and so it must be avoided if that is understood.

I was speaking more so about deviations from the Missal and at what point the Mass becomes no longer the Mass.

Let's take a scenario I had the unfortunate pleasure of witnessing a few years ago.  I was at a NO out of town where the priest was more or less improvising his own version of Eucharistic Prayer II.  He got befuddled and missed the consecration.  When the cantor was next up, he attempted to sing the response to Mysterium Fidei (to get us back on track somehow, I suppose), but the priest "corrected" him that he should be singing the Amen at this point (as he had gone past the point the consecration would have taken place and was into the latter part of his improvised EP), and then he proceeded to the Pater Noster.  Finally, just before the Angus Dei, he turns to the cantor and asks him in front of everyone, "Did I miss the consecration?"  After being told yes, he shoehorned in the consecration (using his own words, again, patterned off EP II) and the continued with the Angus Dei.

So, aside from the questioning I had about the creative use of his own version of a Eucharistic Prayer, given how much he royally messed it up, I was questioning whether the consecration actually ended up happening or not in any sort of a valid form; and if it was invalid, then what he would have done would be officially termed sacrilegious, would it not?  He clearly disrespected the rules of saying the black and doing the red and disrespected it so badly that he did not even follow proper form in performing the sacrifice.
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RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - by NSMSSS - 11-29-2020, 10:41 AM

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