Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass?
(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote:
(11-29-2020, 09:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: And why does celebrating according to the rubrics guarantee that a Novus Ordo Mass is not a danger to one's faith?

I won't say guarantee, but weak as it is, the Novus Ordo is a valid Mass.  Enough said.

Obviously not "enough said". A Black Mass is valid. That "extreme" Methodist-Catholic hybrid monstrosity we would both cringe at and say not to attend is a valid Mass.

Valid does not equal good. It means that the Sacrament was confected and the Sacrifice was offered.

So, the fact that a standard Novus Ordo Mass is valid is not sufficient to say that one sins on a Sunday by refusing to attend for what one has judged is a real danger to one's faith. The whole point of the above discussion was not to try to show you that the Novus Ordo was invalid, but that there are questions, and validity is not the proper standard for judgement.

The issue is whether the Novus Ordo, as a whole (not just in the "extremes"), represents this danger to the faith, either by actively undermining it, or by not properly teaching it (a danger by omission of what ought to be present).

Cardinal Ottaviani, the head of the Holy Office, thought so saying the New Rite "represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated by the Council of Trent."

I or the SSPX might be 100% incorrect on this. If so, that needs to be shown, not just repeating one's outrage at the thought of the claim, and repeating, "Well, it's valid."

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I go based on what my spiritual director once said.  It's one thing if you're there by yourself at the only Mass available and there's liturgical abuse such as dancing going on or something else egregiously bad.  You personally may be strong enough to withstand this with no danger to your faith.  If you are there with your spouse and young children, who could be more easily misled in confusion by what they see, you could be better off heading for the door.

How can we be a decent judge of whether our faith is "strong enough". When even the faith of the Apostles failed, how can we trust that we can expose ourselves to danger and come out better than they did, seeing as God Himself was physically with them.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I am not going to be a judge as to what that point is.  There could be a variety of valid answers, and they will be different depending on whom you ask.  Do what you can to secure yourself with a stable parish life with strong liturgy, says I.

You don't want to judge where the line is, but you're happy to say that the SSPX has crossed it ... sounds a bit hypocritical.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I'm not interested in any further debate in this thread.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but we've not had any debate here. You've simply been repeating your talking point. I would be very happy to continue productive discussion.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: The Methodist-Catholic hybrid service you proposed would be among the most extreme cases of liturgical abuse of the Novus Ordo and would be, quite frankly, more the exception and not the rule (if such a thing were to even exist anywhere).

It does, and I noted that I was not trying to say that this was representative, but trying to establish that there are circumstances where "valid" is not good enough.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I've been to many Novus Ordos through the years in various dioceses.  On average, they were generally weak; but for the most part, the celebrants stuck pretty close to saying the black and doing the red for the majority of the Mass.

But you already said that following the rubrics was no a guarantee of avoiding danger to the faith, so why now suggest it is?

If there is a problem and following the rubrics doesn't guarantee a fix, then why say, "but most follow the rubrics" as a retort?

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: You seem to think the Novus Ordo so toxic that one should immediately excuse himself from ever being a part of it.  I will readily admit I cringe at nearly every Novus Ordo I attend and internally flare into a foul temper, even at the ones that generally get it right.  I'm never a happy camper there, and if ever I can avoid it, I do; but one should be fulfilling their Sunday obligation if at all possible, even if that means attending a Novus Ordo that's littered with heretical preaching for the sermon, extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, Protestant hymns or other cringe-worthy junk.  Terrible as it all may appear, the Mass is still valid; and you do receive Our Lord in communion as you would at a TLM (probably with fewer graces since it is so much more difficult to be well disposed, but you still receive Him nonetheless).

Again, we're back to valid equals good. This seems to be your theme, and you seem not to see the problem with that approach.

Listen, I don't mean to disturb your own personal assessment with the help of your director as to what you do. You are right that you need to form your conscience properly and with a priest's help, and then must follow that conscience. If that leads you to think you must attend the Novus Ordo Mass when you have no other option, then you must do this. You would commit a sin otherwise. This is not the issue however.

You have taken up a public position in this thread accusing others of error and of scandal (by suggesting people avoid Mass on Sunday). You have not taken time to understand why these people say this, but rather imposed your own view from that conscience on others.

You may be 100% correct, but that will be established by engaging the reasons why the SSPX argument is incorrect, not just stating it is again and again, and that validity is the standard.

Should you wish to discuss further, and we can look at that aspect of things, I'd welcome it. If you don't want to, then be assured of my prayers. I do not doubt you're trying to be a good Catholic, so I the least I can do as another Catholic is pray for you, and ask your prayers for me.

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RE: Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass? - by MagisterMusicae - 11-30-2020, 03:44 PM

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