Is it ever OK to attend a Novus Ordo Mass?
#41
Pandora, I notice you're liking posts here, but you have yet to respond to my questions and the thought experiment provided.

It might be good to have some discussion on those points.
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#42
(11-29-2020, 09:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: And why does celebrating according to the rubrics guarantee that a Novus Ordo Mass is not a danger to one's faith?

I won't say guarantee, but weak as it is, the Novus Ordo is a valid Mass.  Enough said.

(11-29-2020, 09:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: What circumstances to you think would justify staying home?

I go based on what my spiritual director once said.  It's one thing if you're there by yourself at the only Mass available and there's liturgical abuse such as dancing going on or something else egregiously bad.  You personally may be strong enough to withstand this with no danger to your faith.  If you are there with your spouse and young children, who could be more easily misled in confusion by what they see, you could be better off heading for the door.

I am not going to be a judge as to what that point is.  There could be a variety of valid answers, and they will be different depending on whom you ask.  Do what you can to secure yourself with a stable parish life with strong liturgy, says I.

I'm not interested in any further debate in this thread.  The Methodist-Catholic hybrid service you proposed would be among the most extreme cases of liturgical abuse of the Novus Ordo and would be, quite frankly, more the exception and not the rule (if such a thing were to even exist anywhere).  I've been to many Novus Ordos through the years in various dioceses.  On average, they were generally weak; but for the most part, the celebrants stuck pretty close to saying the black and doing the red for the majority of the Mass.

You seem to think the Novus Ordo so toxic that one should immediately excuse himself from ever being a part of it.  I will readily admit I cringe at nearly every Novus Ordo I attend and internally flare into a foul temper, even at the ones that generally get it right.  I'm never a happy camper there, and if ever I can avoid it, I do; but one should be fulfilling their Sunday obligation if at all possible, even if that means attending a Novus Ordo that's littered with heretical preaching for the sermon, extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, Protestant hymns or other cringe-worthy junk.  Terrible as it all may appear, the Mass is still valid; and you do receive Our Lord in communion as you would at a TLM (probably with fewer graces since it is so much more difficult to be well disposed, but you still receive Him nonetheless).

I'm not going to make the judgement call for myself as to whether I can be excused from my Sunday obligation if my only option is a bad Novus Ordo.  That requires the spiritual direction of a trustworthy priest.

On a concluding note, even in this day and age, much as the renaissance of the TLM is seeing it celebrated with more reverence than in it was in many cases in pre-counciliar times, I have witnessed a few TLMs that were disappointing.  I was at one where all the scripture readings in the Mass of the Catechumens were in the vernacular (I heard this is unfortunately commonplace in some parts of the world).  At one there was an extraordinary minister of Communion assisting with the priest (the reasoning being due to the aged priest's frailty that he preferred some assistance.  Maybe a valid argument, but the priest was still getting the much longer line than the layman).  In another case, I was trying to bring someone to a greater love for the TLM, but one of the priests at the parish we frequented had a tendency to say his Low Mass very quickly, much to her dismay; and I agree, it was a bad witness.  None of these ever made me wish I attended a Novus Ordo instead that day, but the side of the TLM is not always as rosy as it seems by comparison.
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#43
(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote:
(11-29-2020, 09:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: And why does celebrating according to the rubrics guarantee that a Novus Ordo Mass is not a danger to one's faith?

I won't say guarantee, but weak as it is, the Novus Ordo is a valid Mass.  Enough said.

Obviously not "enough said". A Black Mass is valid. That "extreme" Methodist-Catholic hybrid monstrosity we would both cringe at and say not to attend is a valid Mass.

Valid does not equal good. It means that the Sacrament was confected and the Sacrifice was offered.

So, the fact that a standard Novus Ordo Mass is valid is not sufficient to say that one sins on a Sunday by refusing to attend for what one has judged is a real danger to one's faith. The whole point of the above discussion was not to try to show you that the Novus Ordo was invalid, but that there are questions, and validity is not the proper standard for judgement.

The issue is whether the Novus Ordo, as a whole (not just in the "extremes"), represents this danger to the faith, either by actively undermining it, or by not properly teaching it (a danger by omission of what ought to be present).

Cardinal Ottaviani, the head of the Holy Office, thought so saying the New Rite "represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated by the Council of Trent."

I or the SSPX might be 100% incorrect on this. If so, that needs to be shown, not just repeating one's outrage at the thought of the claim, and repeating, "Well, it's valid."

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I go based on what my spiritual director once said.  It's one thing if you're there by yourself at the only Mass available and there's liturgical abuse such as dancing going on or something else egregiously bad.  You personally may be strong enough to withstand this with no danger to your faith.  If you are there with your spouse and young children, who could be more easily misled in confusion by what they see, you could be better off heading for the door.

How can we be a decent judge of whether our faith is "strong enough". When even the faith of the Apostles failed, how can we trust that we can expose ourselves to danger and come out better than they did, seeing as God Himself was physically with them.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I am not going to be a judge as to what that point is.  There could be a variety of valid answers, and they will be different depending on whom you ask.  Do what you can to secure yourself with a stable parish life with strong liturgy, says I.

You don't want to judge where the line is, but you're happy to say that the SSPX has crossed it ... sounds a bit hypocritical.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I'm not interested in any further debate in this thread.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but we've not had any debate here. You've simply been repeating your talking point. I would be very happy to continue productive discussion.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: The Methodist-Catholic hybrid service you proposed would be among the most extreme cases of liturgical abuse of the Novus Ordo and would be, quite frankly, more the exception and not the rule (if such a thing were to even exist anywhere).

It does, and I noted that I was not trying to say that this was representative, but trying to establish that there are circumstances where "valid" is not good enough.

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I've been to many Novus Ordos through the years in various dioceses.  On average, they were generally weak; but for the most part, the celebrants stuck pretty close to saying the black and doing the red for the majority of the Mass.

But you already said that following the rubrics was no a guarantee of avoiding danger to the faith, so why now suggest it is?

If there is a problem and following the rubrics doesn't guarantee a fix, then why say, "but most follow the rubrics" as a retort?

(11-29-2020, 10:59 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: You seem to think the Novus Ordo so toxic that one should immediately excuse himself from ever being a part of it.  I will readily admit I cringe at nearly every Novus Ordo I attend and internally flare into a foul temper, even at the ones that generally get it right.  I'm never a happy camper there, and if ever I can avoid it, I do; but one should be fulfilling their Sunday obligation if at all possible, even if that means attending a Novus Ordo that's littered with heretical preaching for the sermon, extraordinary Eucharistic ministers, Protestant hymns or other cringe-worthy junk.  Terrible as it all may appear, the Mass is still valid; and you do receive Our Lord in communion as you would at a TLM (probably with fewer graces since it is so much more difficult to be well disposed, but you still receive Him nonetheless).

Again, we're back to valid equals good. This seems to be your theme, and you seem not to see the problem with that approach.

Listen, I don't mean to disturb your own personal assessment with the help of your director as to what you do. You are right that you need to form your conscience properly and with a priest's help, and then must follow that conscience. If that leads you to think you must attend the Novus Ordo Mass when you have no other option, then you must do this. You would commit a sin otherwise. This is not the issue however.

You have taken up a public position in this thread accusing others of error and of scandal (by suggesting people avoid Mass on Sunday). You have not taken time to understand why these people say this, but rather imposed your own view from that conscience on others.

You may be 100% correct, but that will be established by engaging the reasons why the SSPX argument is incorrect, not just stating it is again and again, and that validity is the standard.

Should you wish to discuss further, and we can look at that aspect of things, I'd welcome it. If you don't want to, then be assured of my prayers. I do not doubt you're trying to be a good Catholic, so I the least I can do as another Catholic is pray for you, and ask your prayers for me.
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#44
(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: The issue is whether the Novus Ordo, as a whole (not just in the "extremes"), represents this danger to the faith, either by actively undermining it, or by not properly teaching it (a danger by omission of what ought to be present).

And I would say that is where we ultimately disagree and are not going to convince each other of the other side.  I am interpreting that you think the Novus Ordo as a whole is a danger to the faith, and I would say that it is not.  I would very quickly say that the Roman Church would be far better off without the Novus Ordo, but we're not there yet.

(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: How can we be a decent judge of whether our faith is "strong enough". When even the faith of the Apostles failed, how can we trust that we can expose ourselves to danger and come out better than they did, seeing as God Himself was physically with them.

Well, I'm not going to go to a bad Novus Ordo if I can avoid it, but if I have the unfortunate experience of walking into one (as has happened to me), I know that it is not going to shatter my faith.  I'm well grounded enough that I can stand a few shakes.  I wouldn't say I'm going to come out better from exposure to danger, but one has to know how to handle it because life isn't always safe.

(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: You don't want to judge where the line is, but you're happy to say that the SSPX has crossed it ... sounds a bit hypocritical.

I don't believe an apostolic society has the right to make a general pronouncement that people ought not to attend the Novus Ordo if it's the only Mass available to them.  That's all I'm saying.

(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: But you already said that following the rubrics was no a guarantee of avoiding danger to the faith, so why now suggest it is?

I'm not suggesting that, but I think that you are suggesting that the Novus Ordo in and of itself is a danger to the faith, and I do not agree with that statement.

(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Again, we're back to valid equals good. This seems to be your theme, and you seem not to see the problem with that approach.

I am not saying valid equals good.  I am saying valid equals valid.  Bologna and steak are both meat, but the latter is far superior in a number of ways.  Both will fulfil one's need for nourishment, but one will do a much better job than the other.  You still have to eat in either case.

(11-30-2020, 03:44 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: You have taken up a public position in this thread accusing others of error and of scandal (by suggesting people avoid Mass on Sunday). You have not taken time to understand why these people say this, but rather imposed your own view from that conscience on others.

You may be 100% correct, but that will be established by engaging the reasons why the SSPX argument is incorrect, not just stating it is again and again, and that validity is the standard.

I have taken up a public position that the Novus Ordo in and of itself does not represent a danger to the faith.  I would go so far as to say that in the majority of places where it is celebrated, it doesn't help much for one to grow in his faith.  Still, one is obliged under Canon Law to fulfil his Sunday obligation in all ordinary circumstances (and the Ordinary Form of the Mass is the ordinary circumstance for most Roman Catholics), and one still receives Our Lord in Communion at the Novus Ordo, which includes graces one should not pass up on receiving.  The only other public position I assert is that the SSPX does not have the authority to make a general pronouncement that Catholics who have only the Novus Ordo available to fulfil their Sunday obligation are better off not going.

There, lest there be any confusion, that is the position I state.  I know you are contrary minded, and we're not about to convince each other of the other side.  I just don't see the point in further discussion.
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#45
(11-30-2020, 04:57 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I am interpreting that you think the Novus Ordo as a whole is a danger to the faith, and I would say that it is not.

In general, I would simply say with Cardinal Ottaviani wrote, the Novus Ordo Mass "represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated by the Council of Trent."

As such it is not a "Catholic" rite in itself, and this is why I have seen it used by Methodists and Lutherans verbatim (and closer to the rubrics than the average Catholic Mass!). It is amorphous, and could be used by Protestants or Catholics, and that was the whole goal of Msgr Bugnini, as he, himself, said.

The Novus Ordo Mass could be made Catholic by the priest who supplies an environment which emphasizes what the rite has removed, such as to emphasize the real presence, the ordained priesthood's role as opposed to the lay priesthood, and that the Mass is a sacrifice and not a meal.

Jovan's diocese does this pretty well from what he says, and if one starts with the position from Cardinal Ottaviani, then the conclusion is that if these elements are added back that these Masses would then not have that danger that is found in the lacunæ that are present in the rite.

So, yours is both a partially accurate, but also inaccurate summary of my personal take.

(11-30-2020, 04:57 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I don't believe an apostolic society has the right to make a general pronouncement that people ought not to attend the Novus Ordo if it's the only Mass available to them.  That's all I'm saying.

But you are publicly stating your own general pronouncement that their reasoning is incorrect, so if you can make such a general pronouncement, why can they not do so?

(11-30-2020, 04:57 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I am not saying valid equals good.  I am saying valid equals valid.  Bologna and steak are both meat, but the latter is far superior in a number of ways.  Both will fulfil one's need for nourishment, but one will do a much better job than the other.  You still have to eat in either case.

You are saying valid equals good. That Methodist-Catholic monstrous hybrid I hypothesized is a valid Mass. One need to go? One has an obligation to attend?

If the SSPX's position is correct (and that's the point for discussion, I would think), then your analogy is flawed because it is not bologna vs steak, but poisoned bologna vs steak. If one does not have the steak, is one obliged to eat the poisoned lunch meat?

As above, if they are incorrect, or there is a situation in which the Novus Ordo Mass were not a danger to one's faith, then your analogy and argument are spot on.

So, the disagreement seems to be over the principles the SSPX is enunciating about why they think the Novus Ordo is such a danger and to be avoided, not that they say this.

(11-30-2020, 04:57 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I know you are contrary minded, and we're not about to convince each other of the other side.  I just don't see the point in further discussion.

If, however, we are not going to discuss why the SSPX is incorrect, then indeed, there is no point.

However, if we could discuss those points, there might be a great deal of value here, even if we do not agree, especially for others. I leave that ball in your court.
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#46
SSPX practice the Faith as it was practiced for centuries prior to V2. Calling them schismatic now or even being wary of them is utterly illogical.
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#47
(12-16-2020, 07:36 AM)Lavenderson Wrote: SSPX practice the Faith as it was practiced for centuries prior to V2. Calling them schismatic now or even being wary of them is utterly illogical.

As a very wise man, Robert De Piante, the father of a friend of mine, once said,

What Catholics once were, we are, If we are wrong, then Catholics through the ages have been wrong.

We are what you once were. 

We believe what you once believed.

We worship as you once worshipped. 

If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. 

If you were right then, we are right now.
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