MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way)
#1
Brick 
Has anyone ever heard of the website/forums MGTOW? I explored it today, and it appears to me it is basically a platform for men that have been so wounded by evil women that they have given up on women all together. There are many men there who make the statement that “a woman cannot love a man,“ and they back it up with Bible verses. They claim that a woman is not physically capable of loving a man due to the way that she is wired, and she will always default to self-preservation when the rubber hits the road.

I’m not sure what to think about this; it is obvious that these men have been terribly hurt by very evil women, but I don’t know if they are so entrenched in their pain that they aren’t thinking straight, or perhaps that there is something to what they are saying. My husband and I have had lots of conversations about how difficult it is for a man to find a good woman these days, and what a risk a man takes by marrying a woman who could possibly destroy his life through divorce and take all of his assets and his children.

I don’t blame these men for being so jaded, but I feel like it’s not my place to say that they are over-reacting. Thoughts?
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#2
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#3
I don't blame these men one single bit; marriage/divorce/custody laws are absolutely against them. Domestic violence laws and attitudes toward it are absolutely against them. They are totally powerless in family life, legally speaking and, increasingly, financially speaking, which makes women resent them for the laws feminists push. Too many women lie to cops and use them as mafioso to keep men in line. Women end marriages, and take men's children, income, house, car, and will to live with them.

And in the meanwhile, western women have been spoiled, becoming, in general, entitled, selfish, and whorish. They have no loyalty to men, and zero empathy for them. Few women take a single second out of their lives to imagine what men's lives are like, what they need, or how to make them happy. All their lives, they hear "you go, girl, you stunning and brave creature!" -- and all men get is blame, shame, and hate. Men in the West can have nothing for themselves.

It's because of this more than anything else that I think the West is doomed -- unless things are changed. What needs to change are, IMO:

1. Men shouldn't be expected to pay for kids born outside of marriage, and government shouldn't bail single mothers out (possible exception for widows with children)

1a. No-Fault divorce needs to be ended. Yesterday.

2. Fatherhood needs legal support, like it used to get. Custody should default to fathers.

3. Porn needs to be treated the obscenity it is and prosecuted like it once was.

4. Promiscuity and whorishness need to be shamed again. Slut-shaming worked. At the same time, Victorianism and prudishness need to be avoided.

5. Abortion needs to be outlawed.

6. Contraception needs to be outlawed or at least not made legally available to single people.

7. Single sex education would likely be better for kids at the junior high level on up.

8. We need to stop drugging our boys and start supporting them AS boys. Education -- everything -- has been way too feminized.

9. It shouldn't be illegal for heads of families to make more than a fellow worker doing the same work. 

10. We need to stop shoving women into the workplace. Some women will want -- or need -- to work outside the home, and power to them (some trads make a huge mistake in thinking all women should be either married or in a convent -- anywhere but in an operating room, arguing court cases, etc. Stifle outliers is cruel, and all you get for it are misery and revolution). But left alone, most women will want to be homemakers, something that'd be more likely if men weren't competing with women artificially pushed into the work force.

The problem with some MGTOW guys are that they see radical egalitarianism as the solution: make women register for the draft and they'll come around; make them pay for half of everything and they'll start resisting feminism; let men have a say in abortion, and at least it'd be fair, etc. But they're wrong. The solution is traditionalism -- Catholic style, not the Protestant, secular, prudish, or Victorian style.

Bottom line: it needs to be made clear to women that being whorish is bad, that unwed pregnancies are unfair to kids and their problem alone, and that if they want the home and babies of their dreams, it's through men that they have a chance at it. Women need to STFU for once, think about what men do for them, and start showing some gratitude to and r-e-s-p-e-c-t for men. Men don't want that much, but they can't even get that.

(For anyone new here reading this over our shoulders: I'm female, so don't take this as a "man hating on women post." This is all born of my observations of the world and human nature, knowing women, and listening to men, something too few women do).
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#4
Respectfully disagree with these two:

2. Fatherhood needs legal support, like it used to get. Custody should default to fathers.
Why should custody default to fathers?  There are terrible women and terrible men, and I would be lying to say that in current times custody usually isn’t decided heavily in favor of the mother.  We should judge custody on a case by case basis as intended, but unfortunately not practiced.  We shouldn’t default judgement to anyone, but I also wouldn’t want to end up defaulting to the state.


9. It shouldn't be illegal for heads of families to make more than a fellow worker doing the same work.

Why not?  If he doesn’t think he’s being compensated adequately, he can look for different line of work or different employer.  It’s easier said than done, but we don’t live in the Soviet Union.  In practice, if this situation were to occur singles still might also continue to outperform and thus earn more pay than these men.  Just due to not having a family, they have more time and effort to devote to work.  We see this in action in the “pay gap.”

Full disclosure, if women are single or married without children requiring care, that is, before baby comes home and after the nest is empty, I don’t think there’s a reason for them not to work if they so desire.  I think we both agree on this, though.
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#5
What Vox said.

I suppose I fall into this category, but wouldn't call myself MGTOW. I divorced at 35 and haven't had a real romantic relationship since. Over 20 years now.

For me it's a trust issue. I trusted my wife, she betrayed me, so I won't do that again. There are other reasons as well, of course. I didn't want to bring another woman into my kids life since they spent a lot of time with me growing up. And after they were grown, I couldn't see the point. There were too many downsides.

After I returned to the Church, there was the additional fact that I couldn't get into another relationship unless I got an annulment.

There are times I would like to be married and spend the rest of my days with someone special, but I don't see it happening at this point. I don't dislike women and encourage my boys to get married to good Catholic women and have lots of kids.
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#6
Vox pretty much summed it all up.
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#7
(12-02-2020, 11:48 AM)Pandora Wrote: Full disclosure, if women are single or married without children requiring care, that is, before baby comes home and after the nest is empty, I don’t think there’s a reason for them not to work if they so desire.

Habit and expectations are two I can think of.  You get used to working and think it's a necessary part of your life, and there's where the expectations come in.  You condition yourself to think that if you're not successful in a career, you're pretty much a failure.  It's hard to switch gears when you make big lifestyle changes.  I experienced that when I retired from the Army.  

I vaguely remember when there was an emphasis on raising boys to be husbands/fathers, and girls to be wives/mothers.  I think there was a lot of wisdom in that.  And, generally speaking, I think gender roles are important.  There are of course exceptions, like everything else.
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#8
I was blessed with a good woman for 39 years before God took her home. I guess He wanted another good woman in heaven, but admittedly, living with her was not a cake walk. The feminist influences were hard to deal with, but she mostly didn't buy into them, thankfully and I certainly heard the stories at work, where females dominated in Nursing. Over 40 years in that work allowed me to hear quite an evolution of feminist influences. Basically, I came to realize that many women only want men around so that they have someone to blame.

My dear son is going through the gauntlet of living with a rather nutty woman, a true narcissist, the very definition of one, who blames me for the way he is. She refers to me as a piece of excrement and is always threatening him with divorce and taking his sons away from him. It is rich to watch my grandsons doing the eye roll when she gets going.

I find it very interesting how very different the Suffragettes were from modern feminists who claim to be of their ilk. Suffragettes were, for instance, against abortion.

Truth and propriety are certainly skewed badly these days and what Vox wrote is certainly a breath of fresh air coming from a woman...but I'd expect that of her.
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I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
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#9
Pandora, read this: Garbage Generation: https://tinyurl.com/pjpwjh8
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#10
(12-02-2020, 11:48 AM)Pandora Wrote: 9. It shouldn't be illegal for heads of families to make more than a fellow worker doing the same work.

Why not?  If he doesn’t think he’s being compensated adequately, he can look for different line of work or different employer.  It’s easier said than done, but we don’t live in the Soviet Union.  In practice, if this situation were to occur singles still might also continue to outperform and thus earn more pay than these men.  Just due to not having a family, they have more time and effort to devote to work.  We see this in action in the “pay gap.”

Full disclosure, if women are single or married without children requiring care, that is, before baby comes home and after the nest is empty, I don’t think there’s a reason for them not to work if they so desire.  I think we both agree on this, though.

Why shouldn't an employer be able to as he pleases with his money? And note that Vox didn't say it should be required to pay married men with families more, but that it shouldn't be illegal to.

What we always hear from the feminists - at least those who aren't so radical they want to kill all the children before they're born - is that women in the workplace should be supported with things like maternity leave and child care and so on. If that should be, then why can't an employer support a married man whom he wants to keep as an employee by paying him more?
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