Has Catholic Twitter Lost The Plot?
#11
(12-10-2020, 06:47 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: It seems increasingly clear, though, that the Francis Renovation Project will not end with him, nor is any doctrine truly safe.  The poor reasoning that went into his anti-death penalty teaching and communion practice can just as easily be applied to same-sex relationships, support for socialist or quasi-socialist economics, etc.

The reasoning is always some iteration of "a newfound recognition of human dignity."  And like you said, no doctrine seems safe.  I wonder, what's more important - what's written down in old encyclicals and other documents, or what the Church is actually practicing and preaching.  As the saying goes, "perception is reality."  And right now, the perception of the Church is that it accepts all of those things you listed in your post.
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#12
(12-10-2020, 07:00 PM)LionHippo Wrote:
(12-10-2020, 06:47 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: It seems increasingly clear, though, that the Francis Renovation Project will not end with him, nor is any doctrine truly safe.  The poor reasoning that went into his anti-death penalty teaching and communion practice can just as easily be applied to same-sex relationships, support for socialist or quasi-socialist economics, etc.

The reasoning is always some iteration of "a newfound recognition of human dignity."  And like you said, no doctrine seems safe.  I wonder, what's more important - what's written down in old encyclicals and other documents, or what the Church is actually practicing and preaching.  As the saying goes, "perception is reality."  And right now, the perception of the Church is that it accepts all of those things you listed in your post.

I agree, perception is reality.  Take Francis's policy of allowing divorced-and-civilly remarried Catholics to receive the sacraments again.  We already had a perception problem: thanks to the ease with which most Catholics could get annulments, people already thought of the annulment process as a "Catholic divorce."  Now, even those without annulments can approach their pastors and get readmitted as a pastoral provision.  Or whatever.  The average person is not going to see that and think, "oh, they still believe in the indissolubility of marriage."  They're going to see it as anything but that.  Maybe some Catholic legalism to get around the old teaching while embracing a new one, i.e. to save face.  And the reasoning can easily enough be applied to same-sex civil "marriages."  Sure, the Church says she opposes gay marriage (wink, wink) but now, thanks to a deeper understanding of human dignity and how no one ever meets the requirement for complete consent to mortal sin, we can now admit civilly "married" same-sex couples to the sacraments.  No one will see that and think, "oh, the Church still believes that marriage is between one man and one woman."  It is almost as though Francis and Co. live in an ecclesiastical version of a liberal, academic ivory tower.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#13
(12-09-2020, 03:12 AM)Blind Horus Wrote: Once they all seemed so useful but now IMOSHO have 
deteriorated into a series of destructive cliques.  Sad.:(

I'm actually really pleased with Catholic Twitter, and use it a lot. I recommend you stay away from huge accounts and find a few solid mutuals to engage with. It can be a lot of fun. Feel free to follow me @BluegrassPapist
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#14
You're exactly right.  It's almost like an unofficial endorsement.  Nothing is clear.  Or it doesn't make sense, you know you're being lied to, but there is so much ambiguity that you don't know what to think.  Like with the death penalty now, they're saying, "yes, the Church always approved of it and it is not and never has been immoral.  You just can't use it anymore."
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#15
The death penalty is a good example of this problem.  The Scriptures and over 1900 years of Church teaching have been consistent: capital punishment for certain crimes is just, and not merely when long-term incarceration isn't an option.  Despite this, some comments in a few encyclicals (all post-Vatican II) and a couple of revisions to a single paragraph in a modern catechism slowly whittled that down until Francis declared the death penalty as always inadmissible.  Now, according to folks like those at WPI, all faithful Catholics must reject the death penalty in all circumstances and for all reasons.  We're assured that the Scriptures and Tradition aren't fallible.  But the death penalty supported by both has to go.  And maybe life without parole (Francis seems to be working on that).  It is so muddled and hard to follow any actual reasoning in the position, at least one that isn't barely disguised modernism.  And the perception of the people is simple enough: the Church has changed her teaching (again) and is just saving face.  The liberal secularists must gloat at such things and think something like "they're slowly catching up with us."  And Fratelli Tutti is now providing a basis to extend this kind of "180-degree doctrinal reversal with face saving action" to things like economics, just war theory, and national sovereignty.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#16
(12-11-2020, 01:03 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: The death penalty is a good example of this problem. 

It's nauseating to see even 'conservative' Catholics jumping on the anti-capital punishment bandwagon.  They think it's their key to get the secular culture to embrace an anti-abortion / pro-life stance,  because, "see, we don't want anyone to be killed!"  But mostly, they just don't know how to craft proper pro-life arguments with the theological justification of the death penalty as not violating this stance.
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#17
(12-11-2020, 05:26 PM)LionHippo Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 01:03 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: The death penalty is a good example of this problem. 

It's nauseating to see even 'conservative' Catholics jumping on the anti-capital punishment bandwagon.  They think it's their key to get the secular culture to embrace an anti-abortion / pro-life stance,  because, "see, we don't want anyone to be killed!"  But mostly, they just don't know how to craft proper pro-life arguments with the theological justification of the death penalty as not violating this stance.

That is something I could never understand, why the seamless garment folks think that a "consistent life ethic" will make the fight against abortion easier or more effective.  We need only look at Western Europe, where the death penalty was abolished decades ago.  Do they have pro-life laws?  Nope.  Instead, abortion remains legal and many of these nations are now passing euthanasia laws.  Is the Church's pro-life witness more effective because of seamless garment bishops in those nations?  Obviously not.  They couldn't even convince the Irish to vote against legal abortion a few years ago.  Has Francis's "pastoral approach," this Church of "mercy and accompaniment" done anything to re-evangelize Europe or North America?  Again, the answer seems so clear that to ask the question is to answer it.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#18
(12-11-2020, 06:17 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: That is something I could never understand, why the seamless garment folks think that a "consistent life ethic" will make the fight against abortion easier or more effective.

I don't think that's their goal. I think it's the other way around - that the 'seamless garment' will get more pro-life Catholics opposing the death penalty. Or whatever else is included, like global warming climate change or the new issue of the day.
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#19
(12-12-2020, 12:44 AM)Paul Wrote: I don't think that's their goal. I think it's the other way around - that the 'seamless garment' will get more pro-life Catholics opposing the death penalty. Or whatever else is included, like global warming climate change or the new issue of the day.

I think that's exactly their aim. Whatever left-wing cause they've got can be painted as 'pro-life', death penalty, global warming, immigrants 'rights', homelessness, etc., etc., ad nauseam. If they can just convince people that the 'seamless garment' heresy is actually Catholic, they think they can sucker people in.

Also, another ploy they use is to ignore mentioning the death penalty by name. An example is this, taken from the Platform of the American Solidarity Party:

Quote:Our party is founded on an unwavering commitment to defend life and to promote policies that safeguard the intrinsic dignity of the human person from conception until natural death. 


'Natural death' of course excludes euthanasia, but it also excludes the just employment of the death penalty by the State, as upheld by Catholic doctrine.
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#20
(12-12-2020, 12:44 AM)Paul Wrote:
(12-11-2020, 06:17 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: That is something I could never understand, why the seamless garment folks think that a "consistent life ethic" will make the fight against abortion easier or more effective.

I don't think that's their goal. I think it's the other way around - that the 'seamless garment' will get more pro-life Catholics opposing the death penalty. Or whatever else is included, like global warming climate change or the new issue of the day.

You might very well be right.  Whenever I've talked to seamless garment adherents, they've usually blathered on about being a consistent and effective witness, blah, blah, blah.  And yet, it is exceedingly obvious that it does no such thing.  This whole seamless garment nonsense (especially considering its connection to Bernardin) is probably just one more liberal timebomb meant to insert ambiguity that later liberals can exploit.  The only people I've seen have a change of heart based on this seamless garment rhetoric were folks who had previously supported capital punishment.  Kind of obvious, now that I think about it.  Kind of disheartening to think about all the liberal causes that will get official Church support while the unborn and the sick are ignored (despite Francis claiming no values are negotiable).
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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