No Expectation to Follow Pre-VII Traditions
#11
I got to Mass at 8am and I live about 25 min away. I admit I get up 1.5 hrs before Mass and chug a cup of coffee before the 1 hr before Mass mark. But I don't eat and I don't drink anything else, or if I did it'd just be water. I'm just a weak, tired dad. If they ever formally changed it back to 3 hrs, I'd joyfully obey, but I guess this is once instance Brother Ass is getting the best of me.
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#12
I have to admit, I don't much see the point in abstaining from meat if one feasts on other things. Not saying it's a choice between a full-blown fast or nothing, but if one thinks it should be a day of penance, one should treat it as a day of penance.
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          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

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#13
(12-09-2020, 05:35 PM)Pandora Wrote: The essence of this discussion is not are we actually bound, but what benefits have we reaped from being loosed?  Christmas isn’t a holly, jolly, hedonistic free-for-all, or at least it shouldn’t be for people who actually, literally believe that Christ was born for us.

Where these discussions often end up is people treating what's currently optional as mandatory, and lesser Catholics because they must not be real trads.

Eating meat is hardly a holly, jolly, hedonistic free-for-all.
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#14
(12-09-2020, 09:43 PM)Paul Wrote:
(12-09-2020, 05:35 PM)Pandora Wrote: The essence of this discussion is not are we actually bound, but what benefits have we reaped from being loosed?  Christmas isn’t a holly, jolly, hedonistic free-for-all, or at least it shouldn’t be for people who actually, literally believe that Christ was born for us.

Where these discussions often end up is people treating what's currently optional as mandatory, and lesser Catholics because they must not be real trads.

Eating meat is hardly a holly, jolly, hedonistic free-for-all.

That's one thing I didn't understand much as a kid, because in the Midwest fish and seafood was much more expensive than meat.  So it made no sense to me how eating something more expensive was a sacrifice.  I understand it better now, but still have never acquired much of a taste for seafood.
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#15
(12-09-2020, 05:21 PM)Melkite Wrote: I know I'm nitpicking, but as long as errors continue, so must nitpicking to correct them...

Fasting and abstinence rules are canonical, and particular to the church that issues them.  There are no small t traditions that are universally binding.  Cultural practices that have become a wide-spread tradition are not big T traditions.

Not only particular to the Church that issues them, but in some cases even to a particular Order. E.g. Carmelites traditionally abstained on Wednesday as well as Friday, and fasted and abstained before the Feasts of OL of Mt Carmel and St Elias IIRC.
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#16
(12-09-2020, 05:04 PM)Paul Wrote:
(12-09-2020, 02:10 PM)NSMSSS Wrote: I truly do not understand what Pope Paul VI could have been thinking when he suppressed nearly all of the fasting and abstinence days (please do not provide any snarky responses to this point). What did he think this would accomplish? Were not the words of Our Lady of Fatima "Penance... penance... penance"?

He said it in Paenitemini. While he discusses the value and tradition of fasting, I'm sure the media (and liberal bishops) heard what they wanted to and pushed the view 'you can eat meat on Friday now'. The same as happened with veils.

I'm reminded of a story. Shortly after Paul VI issued Paenitemini, an Anglican cleric friend of mine was flying somewhere. It was Friday and when the stewardess brought his in flight meal, the main dish was meat. (it was the 60's! STEWARDESSES still brought in flight meals! LOL!) He said that he was sorry, it was Friday, and could he possibly have something else. In an attempt to be helpful, she handed him a card with the new Catholic regulations on it. He smiled and said, 'Wrong Church', leaving a very confused stewardess.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#17
(12-09-2020, 10:18 PM)LionHippo Wrote: That's one thing I didn't understand much as a kid, because in the Midwest fish and seafood was much more expensive than meat.  So it made no sense to me how eating something more expensive was a sacrifice.  I understand it better now, but still have never acquired much of a taste for seafood.

That's funny. I grew up in the midwest in an Anglican family that always abstained on Friday, After my Dad died, Mum had a Catholic friend who often came to town on Friday night to go out. She always ate at our house because she knew we wouldn't be serving meat. 

And I grew up to absolutely love all sorts of seafood! Well, except for raw oysters. Never developed a taste for them. Crab, lobster, clams, cooked or smoked oysters, fish of all sorts, YUMMY!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#18
(12-09-2020, 01:38 PM)Pandora Wrote: Moved from thread on Christmas Eve Dinner:


(12-09-2020, 11:01 AM)yablabo Wrote:
(12-08-2020, 11:34 PM)Pandora Wrote: I get a little disheartened when people no longer want to follow tradition.  I feel like we shouldn't do the bare minimum just because it's all we are required to do, and there's beauty and wisdom to be gained in trying to accomplish things that are a little difficult.  That is why people drive themselves crazy with 12 dishes, and keeping carp alive in the bathtub, and sending someone outside to put the baby Jesus in the manger when the first star is out.  If we decide to forget all these things just because they don't make us "feel" anything, we've lost a great deal of our inheritance.

To get the train back on the tracks for this topic, I could order a pizza and crab Rangoons and technically fulfill the Christmas Eve tradition.  Where's the richness in that, though?  I'd lose just about all the symbolism and I'd definitely lose any connection to the past.

You can’t expect everyone to follow Eastern European, Italian, German, French or Irish catholic customs.  Not everyone belonged to those traditions prior to Vatican II, either.  If you like to keep the customs of your ancestors, that is laudable.  I do the same with mine.  However, the things which were law that are no longer, are also no longer universal customs.


Well, unless people were dropped onto the earth after 1960, these were and are the traditions of the universal Church.  If you were Catholic in Kenya or Chile or Korea, it would have been required to follow the rules of fasting and abstinence.  People may have been eating sekihan instead of colcannon, but everyone still did it.  It is more important, to use an nit-picky point of grammar, that tradition is Catholic rather than catholic.

Your position, if I am understanding correctly, is that we only must do what is binding upon sin.  That position is fair enough.  It is, to reiterate, the bare minimum we need to do.  I think what others are saying is we should not dismiss these good and beautiful traditions just because they are technically not required or don’t give us the warm fuzzies.   We aren’t so much concerned about Grandma and Aunt Sue making the feast of the 12 fishes, but for showing the love and respect we have for our Lord on the vigil of His birth by keeping fast and abstinence.

The fast and abstinence was abolished.  If I choose to do it, it is a voluntary mortification.  What is more important by far is dogma.  This is what the american-flavor catholics neglect, though they excel in methody.  

Remember, all things are mutable; only God is immutable.
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#19
(12-09-2020, 06:45 PM)Some Guy Wrote: I got to Mass at 8am and I live about 25 min away. I admit I get up 1.5 hrs before Mass and chug a cup of coffee before the 1 hr before Mass mark. But I don't eat and I don't drink anything else, or if I did it'd just be water. I'm just a weak, tired dad. If they ever formally changed it back to 3 hrs, I'd joyfully obey, but I guess this is once instance Brother Ass is getting the best of me.

The fast period is counted back starting one hour before receiving the sacred species, not the start of Mass.
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#20
(12-09-2020, 07:30 PM)Filiolus Wrote: I have to admit, I don't much see the point in abstaining from meat if one feasts on other things. Not saying it's a choice between a full-blown fast or nothing, but if one thinks it should be a day of penance, one should treat it as a day of penance.

The entirety of Advent is penitential.  The season remains such for as long as it remains on the church calendar.  It is simply now primarily up to the consciences of the laity how they will conduct that penance.
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