the charitable vaccination
#11
Even the aborted cells aside, nobody should be forced to have themselves vaccinated with a just-released concoction for an illness with an over 99% recovery rate. The bishops are just clueless once again. Many people have concerns about having not just this vaccine, but many of them, for issues aside from aborted fetal cell lines. Despite the popular narrative, many folks have suffered vaccine-related injuries throughout the years, have developed severe allergies, or even ironically had their immune systems compromised. Furthermore, there is a wealth of reasons that coronoavirus vaccines have never been made before, the least of which being the propensity for increased susceptibility of severe illnesses in the future.
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#12
@LionHippo - I agree that nobody should be forced to get vaccinated for any reason.
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#13
(12-15-2020, 05:02 PM)jack89 Wrote: I've asked my parish priest about this.  He's traditional and orthodox, but has stated that if someone is in serious need of vaccination, namely healthcare workers and the elderly, these vaccines may be justified.  He was referring to vaccines that are remotely associated with aborted fetal cell lines.  He seems well informed on the issue. 

I very much admire my priest, and trust his opinion, but I'm not convinced.  This is quite the dilemma for me.  I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
If you get COVID, there are medications that are extremely effective and one in particular, Hydroxychloroquine or Paquenil, that is also quite inexpensive and widely tolerated well. The success rate is in the high 90th percentile. However, the effectiveness of the vaccines are generally in the very low 90s and the incidence and severity of its side effects are far more commonly reported in the trials.

So the question becomes: Why bother with a vaccine, any of them, of formulations never used before on humans, until now and not as thoroughly tested as the common flu vaccine has historically been, ehich uses common and accepted techniques in their formulae. When: If you get the COVID and are generally healthy, even without treatment, you have a very likely chance you;ll survive without much difficulty, even without treatment. If you have 'co-morbidity(s)', you are at a greater risk of side effects from the vaccine, but also from the COVID. Hard choice here, but even the sickly seem to do well on the Paquenil.
One should have an open mind; open enough that things get in, but not so open that everything falls out
Art Bell
  
I don't need a good memory, because I always tell the truth.
Jessie Ventura

Its no wonder truth is stranger than fiction.
Fiction has to make sense
Mark Twain

If history doesn't repeat itself, it sure does rhyme.
Mark Twain

You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.
C.S. Lewis

Political Correctness is Fascism pretending to be manners.
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“In a time of deceit…truth is a revolutionary act”
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#14
If we had a real plague that killed 65% of people it infected, I would buy the charity argument if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells.

Since we have a plague that kills less than 0.5% of the people infected (and those mostly with comorbidities), I don't buy the charity argument even a bit.
Vides ut alta stet nive candidum
Soracte, nec iam sustineant onus
     silvae laborantes, geluque
          flumina constiterint acuto.

Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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#15
(12-15-2020, 03:19 PM)Pandora Wrote:
(12-15-2020, 02:38 PM)jack89 Wrote:
(12-15-2020, 02:24 PM)FultonFan Wrote: The end: prevention against an infectious disease. The means: using a vaccine that contains aborted children.

To clarify, the two main companies who are producing these vaccines, namely Moderna and Pfizer, do not use aborted children in the production of their vaccines.

They have tested the vaccines with fetal cell lines, i.e. cloned and reproduced fetal cells from abortions performed decades ago.

I'm still trying to decide if the remote nature of the evil is relevant.  Our hierarchy tells us that it's OK because the evil is so remote.  I'm skeptical.

I think your instinct is right, even remote evil is still evil.

Why not test on cultured adult cells or animals?  I don’t pretend to know the answers to those questions, but calculated murder of innocents cannot be made good.


I agree with you in this specific case, but the principle that most moral theologians work from regarding these kinds of vaccines is that material cooperation in sin is not always a sin. This isn't really controversial; for example, if I sell a bottle of whiskey to someone I have no way of knowing is an alcoholic, I'm materially cooperating in his sin, but obviously I'm not culpable for anything. Therefore it's possible to materially cooperate in sin without sinning yourself.

The trick is figuring out when material cooperation is licit, which has been discussed in other threads (if I remember correctly).

My whiskey example above depends on the cooperator's ignorance; but, to use an example that doesn't, let's say I buy a pair of Nike shoes that were made in a sweatshop. I'm materially cooperating in evil; does that mean I'm committing a sin? Maybe. Most moral theologians say "no".

Those who say it is licit to take the MMR vaccine (and the Oxford coronavirus vaccine) think that accepting the vaccine is analogous to the Nike example, except that we have a grave reason to accept those vaccines (to prevent potentially deadly illnesses).

So the questions are:

1. Is it wrong to buy shoes you know or believe to have been made in a sweatshop?

2. Is taking vaccines manufactured using aborted fetal cells analogous to that?

I don't think it's necessarily a sin to buy those shoes. But I don't think the vaccines are analogous to the shoes.
Vides ut alta stet nive candidum
Soracte, nec iam sustineant onus
     silvae laborantes, geluque
          flumina constiterint acuto.

Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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#16
(12-15-2020, 02:04 PM)TruthWhichIsChrist Wrote: How do you interpret this? From NCROnline:

Quote:"Receiving the COVID-19 vaccine ought to be understood as an act of charity toward the other members of our community," they said. "In this way, being vaccinated safely against COVID-19 should be considered an act of love of our neighbor and part of our moral responsibility for the common good."
https://www.ncronline.org/news/coronavir...ommon-good

Do you see it as a way to reduce the stress felt by Catholic virus-believers?
Do you see it as actual belief in the idea that the virus is an extreme danger? (The dangers and the public response are exaggerated. Libertarian Tom Woods is a good source for perspective on this. For example see https://mises.org/profile/thomas-e-woods-jr )

Many groups are expressing doubts about these vaccines and are proposing that their organizations need not think it obligatory. For example Facebook, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and the Trump White House will not be making the vaccine mandatory for employees.
You think the shot will end anything?
The thing is here for the foreseeable
future or further.

IMOSHO, a consequence of surveillance,
surveillance that has been the end of life
as we knew it.

Sad:( it used to be so much fun spying
on each other. I guess now it is time to
pay the butcher.

++++++++++++++

And just because...

"It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen" The Silmarillion

++++++++++++++

Buck up sport fans. Keep your powder dry
Oh, where are the snows of yesteryear!
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#17
(12-15-2020, 06:42 PM)Filiolus Wrote: If we had a real plague that killed 65% of people it infected, I would buy the charity argument if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells.

Since we have a plague that kills less than 0.5% of the people infected (and those mostly with comorbidities), I don't buy the charity argument even a bit.

Saying they're manufactured using aborted fetal cells isn't quite accurate.  They were just tested using a fetal cell line from an baby aborted over 50 years ago.  The cells were cloned and grown in culture.  Yes, I know that it's still evil and awful.  

But there is an argument that claims the damage is done and that lives can be saved by using those limitless cells that can be grown from those cultures.  The distinction is that there are no new sins being committed.  I think Fr. Ripperger's argument that those cells are part of a body that should finally be put to rest is pretty compelling, though.  

Other than that, I agree with your argument.
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#18
(12-15-2020, 08:30 PM)jack89 Wrote:
(12-15-2020, 06:42 PM)Filiolus Wrote: If we had a real plague that killed 65% of people it infected, I would buy the charity argument if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells.

Since we have a plague that kills less than 0.5% of the people infected (and those mostly with comorbidities), I don't buy the charity argument even a bit.

Saying they're manufactured using aborted fetal cells isn't quite accurate.  They were just tested using a fetal cell line from an baby aborted over 50 years ago.  The cells were cloned and grown in culture.  Yes, I know that it's still evil and awful.  

What do you mean by saying the vaccines were tested using aborted fetal cells? Were they exposing cultured fetal cells to the vaccine, to test if it caused cell death or other negative effects? Usually when fetal cells are involved with vaccines, they are infecting the cultivated cells with the pathogen to multiply what they need to make the vaccine. I'd honestly be concerned about both uses though. Both still promote the precedent of the industrial need for fetal cells.
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#19
(12-15-2020, 08:30 PM)jack89 Wrote:
(12-15-2020, 06:42 PM)Filiolus Wrote: If we had a real plague that killed 65% of people it infected, I would buy the charity argument if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells.

Since we have a plague that kills less than 0.5% of the people infected (and those mostly with comorbidities), I don't buy the charity argument even a bit.

Saying they're manufactured using aborted fetal cells isn't quite accurate.  They were just tested using a fetal cell line from an baby aborted over 50 years ago.  The cells were cloned and grown in culture.  Yes, I know that it's still evil and awful. 

Yes, I've done quite a bit of research about the vaccines that have been under research, so I'm well aware of the way Pfizer and Moderna were manufactured and tested. When I said "if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells", it was specifically in reference to my hypothetical vaccine meant to stop a "real plague". I did not mean to imply that it was the case with Pfizer and Moderna.

Oxford and others, however, were manufactured using cells which were cloned and grown as you state. Sorry for speaking imprecisely! You're right that I should be more careful about how I phrase it.
Vides ut alta stet nive candidum
Soracte, nec iam sustineant onus
     silvae laborantes, geluque
          flumina constiterint acuto.

Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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#20
As for me, I have 2 Chronic immune system disorders, am 64, have type 2 diabetes, and no, I will not take the vaccine until one comes out with NO connection to murdered children!

Y'all might wish to listen to this:
https://sensusfidelium.us/resistance-pod...ripperger/
D. Morgan

"The Truth is still the Truth, even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it" Venerable ++ArchBishop Fulton Sheen
"Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris"
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