the charitable vaccination
#21
(12-15-2020, 06:42 PM)Filiolus Wrote: If we had a real plague that killed 65% of people it infected, I would buy the charity argument if the vaccines weren't manufactured using aborted fetal cells.

Since we have a plague that kills less than 0.5% of the people infected (and those mostly with comorbidities), I don't buy the charity argument even a bit.

They're not manufactured using aborted fetal cells (at least not Pfizer and Moderna).  During the research process, cells that were replicated from replicas of replicas of fetal cells were used.  The actual manufacture of the finalized product doesn't use them at all.

ETA: nevermind - I wrote this before I read down through the rest of thread and saw this was all already answered.
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#22
(12-15-2020, 02:38 PM)jack89 Wrote: I'm still trying to decide if the remote nature of the evil is relevant.

It is.

Have you ever heard of a person who has drowned in freezing water, and then been revived more than an hour after being clinically "dead" thanks to re-warming techniques without serious brain damage? Ever heard of re-warming treatment for hypothermia? Cooling techniques for fevers and heat stroke?

Much of that research and knowledge comes directly from the Nazi eugenics experiments.

If we must refuse even remote cooperation with evil when there is some greater good to be had, we would then need to let such people die. Clearly, rewarming someone now after they go hypothermic does not encourage or cause the past evil. One participates in it in a very distant, and material way, so distant and material than most would likely not know to what extent it was such a participation.

With the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, receiving the vaccine, if there is a just reason to do so, would not be causing or encouraging abortion, especially because the testing done, immoral as it was, is not causing repeated use of these immoral techniques, as many classic vaccines do. This is why the Nazi eugenics analogy is a good fit. It was an evil act. It was long ago. It is not being repeated or encouraged by using the limited good that came from it for good.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, I do not see a moral problem receiving or administering the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, if there is a just reason to do so. The Johnson&Johnson and Oxford vaccines (which are not yet finished) being classic vaccines using aborted cells in the production of the vaccine directly, would be immoral to use, except and unless there was a grave need and no other option. There are other moral options, and probably not a grave need, so I can't see a scenario in which those latter vaccines, if they were finished and approved, would be able to be used morally.

Now, all that said, I have serious concerns over the new mRNA techniques used in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. The theory is good, and these may be much safer and a great step forward in medical science. In fact, this may even prove the point that one does not to do evil to obtain good. However, these are the first mRNA vaccines. We know precious little about their real effect on people and have no long-term studies. There may be massive problems, and yet rushing this new kind of vaccine without much more thorough testing, we will not know until later.

In the meantime a number of anti-vaxxer groups are bound to start producing lots of misinformation, and instead of solid studies to rely on, it will be a bunch of scientific theories from the modern medical community (which does not have a very good moral track record) versus the anti-vaxxer crowd with their theories (who do not have a very good track record of honesty). That confusion, in the present environment of "fake news" and media manipulation is not going to help people do the right things or understand the proper moral actions.
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#23
Ave Christus Rex!
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#24
Fetal cells or no fetal cells, I'll never take the damn vaccine.
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#25
(12-16-2020, 07:55 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Fetal cells or no fetal cells, I'll never take the damn vaccine.

I’ll never take the thing, either. 
Seriously, why take it?
The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.
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#26
Whatever moral questions there might be are immaterial as far as I'm concerned, because I will NOT take any of the vaccines, moral or not.

As I said in another thread:

Based on my general knowledge of the science of vaccine development, there is no way on God's green earth that I am going to get any of these vaccines.

They have been rushed through development, without due diligence, in response to panic and heavy governmental pressure. Plus, of course, Big Pharma saw dollar signs dancing in front of their eyes.


I keep having memories of another drug that wasn't properly tested. Does anyone else remember 'flipper babies'? If not, search 'thalidomide'.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
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“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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#27
There is a meme going around that is apropos:

"Ten years from now we will begin to see commercials that state If you received a Corona vaccine in 2020 or 2021 you may be entitled to compensation."

Need we say anymore?

I think the vaccine manufaccturers have been given immunity from legal ramifications but the you get the point.
"There are in truth three states of the converted: the beginning,  the middle and the perfection. In the beginning, they experience the charms of sweetness; in the middle, the contests of temptation; and in the end, the fullness of perfection."
-- Pope St. Gregory

“One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
-- attributed to Saint Domenic
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#28
(12-16-2020, 11:50 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Whatever moral questions there might be are immaterial as far as I'm concerned, because I will NOT take any of the vaccines, moral or not.

I will avoid the vaccines as well, as much as possible. That said, I worry that government will make it impossible to avoid in practice (not de jure, since many cannot legally force vaccination), by removing right to travel or access basic services if one is not vaccinated, and some may be forced to take the jab just to do their duty of state.

Our situations are all pretty unique given our work, family, etc. So, for consideration, a scenario. I know a number of missionary priests who go to some of the small Pacific islands to care for souls there. They often are the only priests who go there. If the country requires vaccination to enter, will these priests get to say "Sorry, folks, I'd love to care for your souls, but the government is forcing me to take a vaccine to bring you absolution, Extreme Unction and Communion, and, well, that's a bridge too far." What of the duty for a pastor to risk his life and health in service to his faithful?

There will be situations where people are morally forced to take a vaccine. Hopefully, those situations are few, but while I think Jovan's approach is prudent for those who can do this, let's not look down on those who fall into such a scenario and in duty of Justice and Charity, need to take the vaccine.

I can already hear the "SSPX Resistance" wheels turning now. Mrs McGillicutty in Rarotonga is dying of cancer, and has a few weeks to live. She is a lady who was always the island gossip and committed many sins, and is now very sorry and wants to make it all right and die well. She hasn't had the Sacraments in a few years, so the priest, Fr Jones, books a flight, and has to get a jab to get into the country to give Last Rites. Yet, I'm sure some crank somewhere will chime in saying, "See, Fr Jones and the whole SSPX/FSSP/ICKSP/Indult group is just cowtowing to the liberal revolution. Proof of their betrayal."

So, yes, avoid the jab if you can, and if you think it prudent to do so. I will be. But don't think that there are not situations in which some people might, in Charity, or perhaps even for the salvation of a soul, need to be vaccinated.
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#29
(12-17-2020, 01:28 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: So, yes, avoid the jab if you can, and if you think it prudent to do so. I will be. But don't think that there are not situations in which some people might, in Charity, or perhaps even for the salvation of a soul, need to be vaccinated.

MM, I agree with you, but I'm in an enviable position on this. I'm retired and I seldom  leave the city limits of the small town in which I live. In fact, just the other day, I was talking with my C&SH and I realised that I've been outside Wilber only once since a year ago this past September, and that was to go into the next county to look at a van she was thinking about buying. I didn't even make it to the cemetery last month, which is technically outside the town.

This is only partly due to the CCP pandemic. Even before it, it was unusual for me to leave the county. Every couple of months we might drive to Crete, here in Saline County, the larger town 10 miles up the road to the bigger, better supplied grocery store, and maybe once a year we might go to Lincoln to the 'hippy grocery store' to buy odd food items that we like, and likewise once a year we would usually drive to Kansas City to see our kids and grandkids.

Basically, I've never really been much of a traveler, and as I've gotten older I've become even less inclined to interrupt my routines.

So, unless the gubmint mandates the jab to go outside the house, I'm probably OK, but I totally understand that for some people it may be morally necessary to receive it and hope and pray that it doesn't cause severe side effects.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#30
Maybe instead of vaccines we should all get one of these doohickeys lol, that’s how insane this whole thing has become.
Forgive me if there’s any profanity in this — perhaps just watch the first 35 seconds of the video, that will basically give you the idea...

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